Transcript
WEBVTT
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Okay.
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So, connie, this is Kirsten and I doing the beginning.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast.
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I'm Denise and, as always, I'm joined by my fabulous co-host, kirsten Heckendorf.
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There she is waving Hi, kirsten.
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Good morning, happy New Year.
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Before we dive into today's episode, we want to share something that was sort of interesting.
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Over the past month, we've received more messages from listeners than we ever have before, and I think it's because in the episode notes there's a little call to action that says send us a text.
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And we do love hearing from you, but you have to know that this platform Send Us a Text doesn't let us know who's sending these texts, so we can't reply.
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We love to get them, we love to hear what you're thinking, but we can't reply to you.
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We can respond if you reach out through our website or email, and you can email us at BiteYourTonguePodcast at gmailcom, and when you use that channel or our website, biteyourtonguepodcastcom, we'll get back to you as quickly as we can.
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Now let's jump into today's episode.
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Kirsten, why don't you get us started?
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Great, and thank you, Denise, and happy new year to you as well.
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Today's topic hits really close to home for me both friends who have been victims, as well as friends of my daughter's during college specifically and these are crucial conversations we need to learn how to have with our adult children so that they do feel comfortable talking to us, and I think it's one that's unfortunately often kept in the shadows.
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So today we're talking about sexual abuse and how it can impact our relationships with our adult children.
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According to RAINN, which is the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, every 68 seconds an American is sexually assaulted.
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One in six women and one in 26 men will experience an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.
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Today's episode will shed light on how to have these difficult conversations that surround sexual abuse and assault.
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Today we're joined by Karen Dennison-Clark, a woman whose journey embodies courage and advocacy.
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She's here to help parents of adult children understand the profound impact of sexual abuse and how to foster conversations with our children about this sensitive topic.
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So she's going to be sharing a really deeply personal story, and one that she repressed for many, many, many years before finally speaking out.
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Her experience has shaped her life and her relationships, but she's now using it as a catalyst for change, especially with survivors of abuse by trusted adults.
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This is kind of amazing, kirsten.
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I think that statistic by RAINN, the Rape Abuse and Incest Network, every 68 seconds an American is sexually assaulted.
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What the heck is going on.
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So I'm really glad we're talking about it.
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Before we introduce Karen, though, I want to tell you just a little more about her and why this episode is so important.
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In early December of this year, karen was featured in a major New York Times story written by Matt Fetterman, and the story was titled Two Women Lived with the Secret of an Assault by the Same Tennis Coach.
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Then they Found Each Other.
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Everyone should read this and we'll.
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Alarming are the hundreds of comments by readers.
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It's hard to believe the number of women that commented on this story, that talked about suffering quietly being sexually assaulted not only by coaches, but teachers, camp counselors, family members and friends.
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I never understood how they hold it in.
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Don't share it with their families, with anyone, and don't seek support.
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They say it's their word against the perpetrator.
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The reaction to this one article I'm going to say that again, connie the reaction to this in just this one article is remarkable, and I really hope that this episode helps all of us to learn how to bring this up with our adult children and help change the landscape for our grandchildren and our future generations.
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It's been going on way too long.
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All right, now a little bit about the stats, about Karen.
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She was born in Washington.
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She grew up as a local tennis star before literally joining the national circuit at age 14.
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At 15, she was at a tennis camp and a New Zealand coach or a coach from New Zealand and I'm just going to say his name, lou Girard, g-e-r-r-a-r-d.
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A former 11th ranked player in the world, offered to coach her and he was a fabulous coach and took her game to the next level, earning her a ranking and setting her on the path to play professionally level earning her a ranking and setting her on the path to play professionally.
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However, at the age of 16, he sexually assaulted her, altering her life forever.
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Her tennis career as she knew it was over.
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She's now an advocate for the safeguarding of women through speaking, writing podcasts and lobbying for legislative change.
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A mother of three and grandmother of three will learn why she is speaking out now and how we, as parents, can create a supportive environment for our I'm gonna say that again, connie A mother of three and grandmother of three, ugh one more time.
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A mother of three and grandmother of three will learn why she is speaking out now and how we as parents can create a supportive environment for our adult children and grandchildren.
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It's really shocking, kirsten, I'm so glad to do this episode.
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It's a little out of our normal recordings, but I think it's important.
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I don't know that.
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I think it's so abnormal.
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We talk a lot about other things that are not something that you and I have necessarily experienced, but that I do think other parents have experienced, and I also wonder if there isn't some silence that takes place amongst those parents as well.
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They also don't feel comfortable saying, yeah, my kid was sexually assaulted and it's not our story to tell.
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It's our kid's story to tell, so it's so complicated, but I do think it fits with what we talk about with adult children and how we communicate with them, absolutely.
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Okay, kirsten, let's stop here, because then when Karen comes on, okay, kirsten, let's stop here, because then, when Karen comes on, you can do the welcome.
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Karen, does that make sense?
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Yep, okay, so let me pause the recording Shoot.
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Sorry, I got us on too soon.
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Let's see.
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Pause.
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Welcome, Karen.
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You have so bravely shared your story with the media, including the Denver Post and the New York Times, with one article alongside tennis legend Pam Shriver.
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Your latest story that just ran in December shares a compelling journey that you shared with another athlete also abused by the same coach.
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Okay, wait a second.
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We've got to stop that.
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Remember, I mentioned that above, so you were going to take that part out.
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Your story just ran in December.
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Yeah, you were just going to jump right into jump.
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It was the other part I was going to take out.
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Yeah, yeah, Okay.
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So I'm just going to take that out.
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Connie, we're going to start again.
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Just let say you're shared your story with the media period Cause I talked above, I gave the title of that article with the gal and everything.
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I'll send you my well you can go on the doc anytime and see what we changed.
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Yeah Well, and I just downloaded it because otherwise it screws me up on the yeah, okay, sorry, okay.
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Okay, I'm sorry.
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Okay, Welcome Karen.
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You have bravely shared your story with the media, including the Denver Post and the New York Times.
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Your story is so compelling and your advocacy is inspiring.
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We're so grateful to and to have you here to share your journey and those insights.
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We also want to know how you shared this with your own children and how your work impacts your grandchildren.
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No, now you have to start with the question.
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You do want me to go to the question?
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Yeah, you go right to the question yeah, okay, connie, here we go.
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Can you tell us what drives your passion for sharing your story so publicly Walk us through your journey a little bit and why you think it's so critical to bring these issues to the forefront?
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Well, thank you so much for having me.
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This is definitely a passion of mine.
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When something like this has happened in your life and you've kept it hidden for 50 years, it is so healing to get your word out.
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My reason for this is I don't want it to happen to anybody else.
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I want to deter the behavior.
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I want women to speak up and feel like they can, because I think I was raised in the say nothing generation and I want, I want that to change.
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I know how healing it's been for me and I want other women to be able to feel that.
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And I think that a big thing is is our grandchildren, it's the next generation, like it's too late for us?
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Uh, even for our own.
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Most of our children are millennials, it's you know, they've probably already been assaulted.
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If they were going to get assaulted, um, so we can help them by talking to them.
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But it's really about our grandchildren and the next generation, because I believe that's where the change can be made.
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So, karen, walk us through your story.
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I know that, particularly in the most recent article in the Denver Post, there was a lot of it, but I think hearing it firsthand from you for our listeners would be a great help before we jump into some of the questions we have for you.
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Yeah, so I was born and raised in Washington DC, the mid-Atlantic region for tennis in our country, and I was a pretty talented tennis player junior and I went to a camp.
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I was already really highly ranked in the region and I go to this camp in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia when I was 15 years old and it's a Dennis Vandermeer camp, who was really a well-known coach.
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I met Lou Gerard there at 15.
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And I can look back now and say I think the grooming started that week.
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He offered to I had taken a train down to Sweetbriar College, which was where the camp was, and he offered to drive me home from camp.
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He was taking another camper, a male camper, so back to Baltimore where he was from, and um, but he he got to meet my mom, so my mom didn't have to take me to, you know, pick me up at the training station.
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She was like this is all great and started working with him.
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You know he was saying I want to work with your daughter.
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She has such great potential.
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I started working with him right away.
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My mother loved him.
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He was from New Zealand, he was this world-ranked player, so he had the accent and he was as charming as they come, which most perpetrators are really charming, and I started working with him right away.
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He took my game to the next level that you know, fall he.
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I had a I'm six of seven children.
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I had an older sister.
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My oldest sister was married with two kids.
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At the time she lived in Charlottesville, virginia, and Lou was giving an adult clinic at the Boar's Head Inn in Charlottesville and that's where the abuse took place.
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But he was just so good at saying, hey, I can help you do this and come down to Charlottesville.
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And my mom drove me down.
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I didn't even have my license yet and stayed with my sister and the Friday night he said to come, come after the adult clinic and we'll work.
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You know, I'll train with you.
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We'll have a lesson and I remember the lesson being shorter than I thought it would be Like I was.
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It was always an hour.
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And I remember the lesson being shorter than I thought it would be, like I was.
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It was always an hour and I know it was.
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It felt like 30 minutes, but maybe it was 45.
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And then he said he needed to um go to the tavern to socialize a bit with the adult campers from that weekend.
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And we go and he's like I'll take you back to your sisters.
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After that we go to this tavern.
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I can remember a low coffee table and all these, you know, adult tennis players I'm 15 at the time losing his mid thirties, and he puts this small glass with a brown drink in front of me and I'd never had a mixed drink before but I knew it was like bourbon whiskey, something like that.
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Um, I drink it.
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I don't remember ever getting another drink.
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And the next thing I remember is I'm still at the tavern and there's no one there.
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Everyone's gone.
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Lou then says he needs to run by his room to get something before he takes me to my sister's and I can remember him holding me up like kind of behind my arm at my elbow and I'm having trouble walking and I can remember these white walls and this green rug and I'm going down the hallway and the next thing I remember I am flopped back on a bed, my tennis skirt is at my knees and he's wiping my stomach with Kleenex and he's wiping my stomach with Kleenex.
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I remember going home and not a word was said in the car.
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I can remember that it was fall, so there were a lot of leaves and he's helping me get to my sister's house and walking up the walkway and I'm shuffling through leaves, I go inside and I remember when I woke up the next morning thinking I can never tell anyone what happened, and I was just frozen in fear but I went on.
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I was going to you, continued to train with him.
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I did and nothing was ever said.
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Nothing, so it was I mean, he never tried it again which, when I finally got into therapy, she was like that's pretty unusual, because usually that's kind of the beginning of more abuse.
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And so somehow I let him know this was never going to happen.
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But anyway, I go on.
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I continue training with him.
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Nothing is ever said.
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The following summer I have the best summer of my life.
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I ranked in the top 20.
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In the end of the summer, lou said to me and I was top 20, and he said next year when you're in the 18s, you're going to be in the top 10.
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Right, and this little voice went off in my head no, that's not going to happen.
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And I didn't understand what was happening to me and like, why was I thinking that?
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Why didn't I trust him?
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And you know, was it a few weeks or maybe a month, but I know that fall, all of a sudden I could not hold on to a tennis racket and my hands, literally like I could see them shaking and I didn't.
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I had no idea what was happening to me.
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With hindsight now I can look back and say I think that was my body saying you got to get out of there.
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I think that was my body saying you got to get out of there.
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And so my tendons started falling apart and I, I mean, I kept saying to Lou what's wrong, what's happening to me.
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And he was a jerk about it.
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I'm saying I mean he just wasn't helpful.
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He was just I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
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Well, he certainly knew, but he didn't want to say anything.
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My mother was saying you know what's happened, karen, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong.
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And I just I couldn't tell her.
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And so to this day I can feel it today, lying to my mother and feeling horrible about it.
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And I looked, I had to get her off my back and I just said, mom, I just think I don't like tennis anymore.
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And then she was like oh, you know, darling well, of course you don't need to play tennis.
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And you know I'm thinking that was the biggest lie I've ever told.
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And that's I.
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You know, I love the game.
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I love the game today.
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And, but I didn't know what else to do.
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So, yeah, go ahead.
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I just want to know.
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So, how many years late?
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So you repress this, you go through college, you get married, you have your own children, and when does this?
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Because I want to talk a little about of understanding this whole repression and memory, because, for those of us that haven't gratefully been exposed, you'll hear stories where someone will pop up 20 years later and say, oh, when I was in fourth grade or when I was four years old, and you think to yourself, why are you just talking about it now?
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So what was your journey to finally come to terms with this?
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I mean, you remembered it, maybe, but you repressed it.
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Is that right, or how does it work?
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I want to add something to that as well.
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Why did you feel that you couldn't tell anybody what if you remember what was going on in your head?
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Because I wonder if that also plays a role in allowing your psyche to repress it.
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Yeah, um, I wouldn't.
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The fear, the fear of not being believed, I mean that.
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I think that's the crux of why I kept it silent and that was proven just this year in matt butter's article.
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Lou denied he knew me, he denied he'd ever even met me.
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So what do you think he would have done when I was 15, 16?
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Right, and I knew I had to have known that.
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Right, but yeah, I just I had.
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I will have to say I had five or six years after this happened where I to myself I called them my lost years.
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I did not have a great college experience.
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I went to the University of Maryland.
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I got the first full scholarship for a woman.
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There I played number one and I was barely functioning.
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And at that time in the seventies, I needed to go to Florida, california or Texas to a good tennis school.
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Maryland is a good tennis school now you know it was very mediocre in the 70s so it all looked good on paper full scholarship, number one player, blah, blah, blah.
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I was.
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I didn't even, I can't even describe um.
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I was just putting one foot in front of the other.
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I did not have a good experience, even though you know you'd look at my record and go that was pretty decent.
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I was like struggling to get through each match.
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I would say about five years after and I'm actually at the end of college and I start, I feel like I started coming out of it, but I don't even I can't even explain to you today how and why that happened.
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Um, but I got, I started to get better mentally, I guess, and you know, I eventually meet my husband, I marry, I have children, like Denise just said, and I think something happens in everyone's lives who's experienced a trauma like that that triggers them and so an event happens.
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I mean Pam Shriver when she came out with her story about her inappropriate relationship with her coach, who which is why the article I was in that article with Pam is because our coaches were really good friends, we both.
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She grew up in Baltimore, I grew up in Washington DC.
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I was four years older, I was the best player in the area and she looked up to me at the time and she says in 2020, both her mother died and Don Candy, her coach, had died, and she said that was her trigger.
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She's in the pandemic, she has all this time to think about her life and she gets into therapy.
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For me it was 2006.
00:21:30.444 --> 00:21:52.269
I had just started coaching at University of Denver, du that year, and I'm coaching with this woman, amy Jensen, and in just passing conversation she'd graduated from Berkeley and she had won the NCAAs and doubles three years that she was there.
00:21:52.269 --> 00:22:02.077
And it just comes up in this conversation that actually her freshman year, she played at Wake Forest and she said I was recruited.
00:22:02.077 --> 00:22:05.492
She's Australian and a very funny woman.
00:22:05.573 --> 00:22:22.144
And she said I was recruited by this pervert from New Zealand who then got fired a couple of years later for an inappropriate relationship with a player, a couple of years later for an inappropriate relationship with a player.
00:22:22.144 --> 00:22:26.155
And I'm looking at her like I'm looking at you right now, and there is no change in my expression.
00:22:26.155 --> 00:22:30.076
And I knew exactly who that pervert from New Zealand was.
00:22:30.076 --> 00:22:34.836
I knew he had an enormously successful career at Wake Forest.
00:22:34.836 --> 00:22:38.690
I knew all that but I could.
00:22:38.690 --> 00:22:40.680
I was obviously being.
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.170
That was my trigger, but I couldn't deal with it right then.
00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:45.593
And I go home.
00:22:45.593 --> 00:22:56.713
I know exactly where I was, in my house, and I wish I could explain how I cried for close to an hour.
00:22:56.713 --> 00:22:58.977
I couldn't sit down.
00:22:58.977 --> 00:23:08.596
I was pacing but I was buckled over at my waist and everything is flooding back and I've never cried like that in my life.
00:23:08.596 --> 00:23:11.326
I will never cry like that again.
00:23:11.326 --> 00:23:17.538
I think the biggest thing that day was oh my God, it wasn't just me.
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:25.435
Because I think I thought I was the only one, as Matt Futterman, you know, at times says Karen, you probably won his first either.
00:23:25.435 --> 00:23:26.846
You know so.
00:23:26.846 --> 00:23:31.480
But that was the big revelation that it wasn't just me.
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:39.878
And then we're talking 26 years from the time he assaulted me to the time he got fired from Wake Forest, which was 99.
00:23:39.878 --> 00:23:41.326
And this is 2006.
00:23:41.326 --> 00:23:47.576
And I'm thinking how many others were there in those 26 years.
00:23:47.576 --> 00:23:54.150
But I will say, even though that triggered me, I still wasn't ready yet.
00:23:54.150 --> 00:24:02.921
And I think I wasn't ready because I had high school students at home.
00:24:02.921 --> 00:24:05.914
I had one who was a freshman in college and two in high school.
00:24:05.914 --> 00:24:13.876
And you're just busy in your life, and I just think I didn't have the space yet.
00:24:14.045 --> 00:24:20.317
I told my husband that night, but I didn't give him a lot of the details.
00:24:20.317 --> 00:24:21.159
He knew Lou.
00:24:21.159 --> 00:24:30.376
I mean, lou was very well known in the mid-Atlantic area and my husband, raul, was a tennis player as well and had coached with him.
00:24:30.376 --> 00:24:40.095
But I just wasn't ready to give the whole story so fast forward nine years and I don't know what then.
00:24:40.095 --> 00:24:42.078
But I was definitely more.
00:24:42.078 --> 00:24:54.250
It was definitely more in my life, it was in my mind, even though I had only told Rao, but I also had reached out to a therapist I had used years ago.
00:24:54.250 --> 00:24:59.480
She told me to write him a letter, not send it, and just tell him everything I think of him.