Season 3 Episode 83 Don't Bite Your Tongue with Dr. Ruth Nemzoff

Transcript

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Hey everyone, it's Denise.

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Today's episode is also an episode rewind.

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I hope you're enjoying some of these.

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This one is with author Ruth Nesvoff.

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She wrote a book Don't Bite your Tongue how to Foster Rewarding Relationships with your Adult Family.

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So she claims it's better not to bite your tongue.

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She says bringing up important topics builds intimacy, but there's a right and wrong way to do it.

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So I hope you'll listen, even if you've listened before, and learn something today from Root.

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Thanks everyone.

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Let's get started and learn something today from Ruth.

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Thanks everyone.

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Let's get started.

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And you've been hearing about letting go since you know you sent your kid to nursery school and they tell you to let go.

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But the truth is, why would we want to let go of our children?

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We have spent more hours working with our kids, more money lost, more sleep than any job.

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Anything we've done, it's really taken it out of us.

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What we really want to do is transform the relationship, and transforming that relationship also involves giving them some credit for having grown up.

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So welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast.

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I apologize, my voice is not so great today.

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I've been sick not COVID, mind you without a voice for nearly three weeks.

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So I'm very, very happy Ellen's with me today.

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Ellen, it's episode 40.

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And last night I was thinking, okay, we're heading into episode 40, and it's taken me so long to figure something out, and I think it was our guest's book that helped me figure this out.

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I'm not sure the task at hand is truly building healthy relationships with our adult children, but instead figuring out our relevancy.

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Where we sit in.

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For so long we've been so relevant, in fact actually sort of in charge, and suddenly, as our kids become young adults, we're no longer in charge.

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They are, and we need to figure out what our role is, or maybe what they want our role to be.

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Do you agree with me?

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What do you think about that?

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Oh, completely.

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I mean, I think we have to figure out what our role is to them.

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We also have to figure out and I've said this from, I think, our very first podcast we have to figure out what our role is for us.

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Right, for maybe 18 years and another four to six years, we were semi-relevant a lot of times just because we were a resource, either a financial resource or sometimes a resource for a place to live for a while, but then starts to fade, and even that part of the journey is pretty difficult too.

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So it's particularly true when our adult children are doing what they're supposed to do, when they're becoming independent, when they're doing all the things that we've wanted them to do.

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So, yeah, I think relevance is an important topic, well, and I think our ego gets involved a little bit.

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We feel bad, we're not so relevant.

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And when you don't have a lot going on in the rest of the other part of your life, which you said, developing our own journey through older adulthood then you get even more anxious.

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And it makes me think of episode 34, when we interviewed Dr Carl Bellmer from Cornell and he pointed out that psychological term I'd never heard of intergenerational state, and it really basically means that the parent's investment in the relationship with their adult children is so much greater than the children's investment in that relationship.

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It doesn't mean they don't love us any less, but they're busy building their own lives.

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We've built ours, we've had our children.

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So, yeah, they love us, but they don't need to talk to us every day, they don't need to know what we made for dinner.

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You know that sort of thing, and there may be some struggle and lots of ups and downs, but it doesn't mean it's not a loving relationship.

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It's just different from the one we had before.

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Well, that gets us right to today's podcast.

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We named our podcast Bite your Tongue because all along, most believe the adage bite your tongue, loosen your purse strings and wear beige.

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Today's guest will counter all of that.

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In fact, she believes that biting your tongue or silence, doesn't build intimacy.

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She says that giving advice is not at all bad.

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We just must learn to do it right so we don't alienate our children, or that they just stop listening to us because we're talking too much.

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So I'm excited to introduce her, because I've always wondered how you build authentic relationships if you're biting your tongue all the time.

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And even though it's a lot easier to build relationships with friends, it's almost impossible to know day to day how to do this in a way that's really helpful to our kids.

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And so today we're welcoming Dr Ruth Nemzoff, the author of a book that completely contradicts the title of our podcast not the podcast itself, just the title.

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Her book is called Don't Bite your Tongue how to Foster Rewarding Relationships with your Adult Children, and it's garnering lots of attention.

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As one reviewer said, it offers parents of adult children a way to take the bite out of what can be complex relationships.

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Ruth is also the author of Don't Roll your Eyes Making In-Laws Into Family and is a resident scholar at Brandeis Women's Studies Research Center.

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She's also a parent of four adult children.

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Gives her a lot of credibility with us.

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Welcome, ruth, we're glad you're with us Well, thanks.

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I like to first contradict you when you talk about the title of the book.

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The title of the book was actually picked by the marketing department.

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As a first time author, you don't have any choice, of course, so I was very upset, but it turned out it sold well, so I'm very happy.

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But the truth is, the message of the book is think about how to say it, what to say it, when to say it.

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And if I were writing it today, I'd have a whole chapter on what medium to say it, because we have so many choices of different ways of saying things and part of that meeting is non-verb, in other words, the medium of texting, of course, but also you can sometimes communicate with people by as I'm sure your friends have done for you with chicken soup, flowers, with chocolates, with just actions, by just going for a walk.

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So actually I had to straighten that out.

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I'd also like to just relate to a couple of other things you said, which is when I talk about giving advice to children.

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I think it's perfectly okay to give advice.

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It's just not okay to expect them to follow it, and you need to make that clear to them that this is one idea, and I hope you'll gather other ideas.

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This is not only one idea.

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I want you to tell you why I think what I think, because you may be completely out of date, you may be completely off base and you help them have a frame of reference how to judge your advice.

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Well, you kind of started us off because we had a list of questions, but now I'm going to ask you this because this is top of mind to me.

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Sure, so you say that and I think with my own adult children, I try and do that.

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I might give advice and I'd say but you know, I'm out of the loop these days.

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I don't know what the work, I really don't know the work environment.

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Socially, things are much more casual.

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You know all that sort of thing.

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However, one of our guests said and you might know she's from New York, jane Isay, who wrote oh, I know Jane, you know, jane, yeah, and I loved interviewing her.

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And she said and I really believe this when a parent speaks, it's like a giant megaphone, right?

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So what they take, they take to their heart.

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So, even if they don't agree with what you're saying, I'm worried what I say they might take too seriously when I'm completely wrong.

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So I worry about giving the advice where, even if they disagree with me and sometimes they'll come back with that makes, doesn't make any sense.

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Mom, blah, blah, blah, and the same was my parents.

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Yet it still stayed with me and I don't want something that I say that's totally off the track to stay with them.

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Yeah, I have the same experience too, denise, that it's just like sometimes I just say something that's a joke or something that you know oh, you're doing that.

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Now I don't really care that they're doing that, it's just a clog, you don't, but it sounds judgmental.

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Yeah, yeah, how do you get that judgmental part out of it?

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Okay, well, first I want to say you know, we think we're more powerful than we are and we're very frightened of using that power because we used to be all powerful.

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But it might not be a secret to you that your kids have figured out.

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You're not all powerful, even though at the same time they hear your words in high fidelity, or I guess now we'd call it Dolby surround sound.

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But at any rate they hear us.

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At moments of real stress, like a wedding or a birth of a child or anything like that, that sound is so loud and is so big.

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So we need, in our thinking, to take that into consideration.

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Timing is always a big thing, you know.

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We need to realize that there are certain moments when things are really loud.

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Now we also have to give our children some credit, for while in fact they do react emotionally, they may 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, see it very differently.

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Years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, see it very differently.

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And I'm sure all of you both of you and our audience out there have things that our parents said to us that we thought were horrible at the time and now either we think they're funny or very age, kind of like an antique curtain or something.

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But it also might have resonance, and I think in Don't Bite your Tongue, I use the example of my mother, you know, telling me to write thank you notes, and the faster you write your thank you note, the less good it has to be.

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And I was, oh, mother, you know, mother.

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And now I think of that all the time.

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I'm going to send that email immediately, because it doesn't have to be as good if I wait three months and finally have to say something brilliant.

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What do you think about thank you notes?

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Yes, I still say don't forget to send them a thank you note.

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Should I never say that?

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Well, I think by now your children have probably figured out how to block it out and they've internalized it enough.

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So I think that the society, one of the things we talk about, is letting go, and you've been hearing about letting go since you know you sent your kid to nursery school and they tell you to let go.

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But the truth is, why would we want to let go of our children?

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We have spent more hours working with our kids, more money lost, more sleep, than any job, anything we've done.

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It's really taken it out of us.

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What we really want to do is transform the relationship, and transforming that relationship also involves giving them some credit for having grown up and realizing that we don't control everything.

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So I understand when you say it feels like a loss that we aren't all powerful.

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It was great, you know, when we could kiss and make that boo-boo go away.

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It was wonderful, you know how powerful can you be, but the truth is it gives us some freedom also A freedom, as you said here, to build your own life.

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A freedom to not be responsible for everything they do, because in fact, we aren't responsible.

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There are many other forces affecting them than just us With that.

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So that brings me to a part of your book, this paragraph I really like, where you actually talk about what you're talking about now, where you know we're a time, you're in charge and that we need to let go.

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You say letting go is not a solution.

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It is better to craft new ways of connecting, ways that recognize our mutual needs, including our own feelings about being interrupted or being in a need to develop ways of relating to our grown-up children at each stage of their maturation.

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If we are not thoughtful and careful, we can unwittingly and gradually phase our children out of our lives, first with sleepovers, eventually leaving them at college and finally by creating completely separate lives.

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The result can be disconnected families.

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Rather than letting go, let's develop new ways of relating.

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That's beautiful, yeah.

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So here's what I want to know, though.

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We get a lot of questions about failure to launch.

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You're right, we are giving your kids credit for building their own lives.

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You came to us via Judith Smith, right, you know, judith?

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She recommended you to us via Judith Smith, right, you know, judith?

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She recommended you to us and she wrote that wonderful book on parenting difficult adults.

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Where do you stand with that?

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I mean, it's such a burden when your children aren't launching, and how do you face that?

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Do you have any advice for that?

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Well, first of all, failure to launch it has changed dramatically in the last three years.

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Well, failure to launch it has changed dramatically in the last three years.

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So up until then, if your child moved back home in many echelons of society or any stratus of society or various groups, that was considered a failure.

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Now it's considered a wise economic decision because the economy has changed.

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So I think I try to give in the book a recipe for how you go about changing these relationships.

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And when I say a recipe, it's not a recipe like from Gourmet Magazine, it's a recipe from the peasants, our forebearers.

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In other words, you work with what you've got.

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It's like going into the fridge, seeing what you have and conjuring up a meal, as opposed to following you know three cups of this and two cups of that.

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So the first thing is knowing ourselves, because we want to make sure that when our kids say to us, oh you're just doing that so you can brag to people, they might be right and we need to own that.

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But secondly, we need to know the environment, and what is failure to launch for one person may not be failure to launch for another.

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So in many societies kids live with their parents until they marry, and it could be age 40, age 34, whatever.

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That hasn't been the norm here, it may become the norm.

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Now we began to see some of the benefits of intergenerational living.

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Those with grandchildren became more involved.

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Parents needed help, so I would say that is in flux right now.

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Another thing is training periods are much longer, so your children might, for example, have life and death responsibility as, let's say, a surgical intern or a surgical resident.

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They're almost 40 years old by the time that happens and so they're in some ways very independent, but in others they may need a little assistance from you financially.

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So that's one kind.

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Now Judith is talking about cases where the children are truly having problems beyond the normal storm and drama of life.

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Right, but I guess how do you figure that out when your child even though it's the norm and the kids in your basement living are in their bedroom?

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How do you divvy up roles and responsibility?

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They're no longer the teenager going to school every day.

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What are your expectations and how do you set them?

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Oh, you are so right, absolutely.

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When the kids come home, whether for short or long visits, but particularly for long visits, sit down, make the deal clear.

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Do you have to pay rent?

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What do you have to do in terms of the minutiae of household chores?

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Right?

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So can you leave the laundry in the laundry room?

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Do you have to take it out of the dryer and bring it into your own room?

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Can you leave the coffee cups in the living room?

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Whatever, you need to negotiate in advance.

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What is the deal?

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Are we paying in money?

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Are we paying kind?

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Are you expected to cook once a week?

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Are you expected to tell me if you're going to be home after midnight, which very often the kids will say Mom, I'm, you know, 30 years old.

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I don't really care where you're going, I just need to know whether I should leave the light on or not, and I think they can laugh with you about that.

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But really making the minutiae clear is very important, and not only that, but having a method to look back and see is this working, is it not?

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Can you have guests in the house?

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Can they be overnight guests, et cetera.

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That's hard.

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So I'm going to give you a real-life situation for my young best, because he's sort of in between these two poles and I am in a situation had made different choices when he was younger, like finishing doing all the things that I would have suggested.

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I did suggest to him that he didn't.

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So now he's in a situation where, you know, he's in his late 20s, he doesn't have the job that he wants, and it's hard because I want to give him direction and maybe even support.

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This is where it gets tricky, and I think I see a lot of other parents in this situation where they have a child who's who's launch-ish, like he's sort of launched, but he's not quite successful in his eyes, not in mine.

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For me, success is do I not pay your phone bill at age 30?

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And that's good enough for me.

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You know, if you're, if you're reasonably happy living on your own, but it's that sort of like.

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How much advice do we give at that age?

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It's almost like the advice you would give to an 18 year old in some ways.

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What would you suggest?

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Oh well, first of all, I'd congratulate him and really be positive about he has what he has accomplished, which is supporting himself.

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That is not a small deal that you can support yourself and really let him know how proud you are of that.

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And if you just say, look, I want to talk about this, I know you seem unhappy and if I can be of any help, I would be happy to do it.

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And then you can outline, say I just want to talk about it.

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We don't have to talk about it many times.

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But, for example, if you want to go back to college, I want you to know I will pay, I won't pay, what percentage you would pay, or whatever.

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Or you could move back home so you could save money and you could pay.

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There are many options.

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I think that's the thing with we're so limited in yes or no.

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There are many options you could present to him and say, look, you don't have to tell me now, we don't have to discuss it again.

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I just want you to know the kind of support I'm willing to be if you decide to do that Now, one of the ways.

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Also, he has many options because, you know, we think of college, that those four years, you know, and it has to be after high school.

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In fact, we're living knowing the environment.

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We're living at a time where many, many options are open.

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There are weekend colleges, there are online colleges, there are still evening classes, you know, and so he doesn't necessarily have to give up books and just open up the discussion in terms of the myriad of possibilities and what your role could be if he wants it to be, and if he doesn't, that's OK too.

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You know, you gave some great advice out here that I didn't really think of, and I think this is really good for parents.

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You need to be prepared for these conversations.

00:20:10.765 --> 00:20:12.692
Absolutely, do your homework, like you said, like present him with options.

00:20:12.692 --> 00:20:25.053
Well, I've got to do some thinking about that on my own, like what is OK for me Again, sort of like that whole idea about we've got to figure out us and what we can tolerate, what we want, you know, as well as listening to them.

00:20:25.053 --> 00:20:28.186
It really is a two-way street, right?

00:20:28.186 --> 00:20:38.641
That's exactly what the point of the whole book is that relationships are between people and there are two people involved and you can't diss one or the other.

00:20:38.661 --> 00:20:40.542
The idea of silencing the parent doesn't make sense, nor silencing the child.

00:20:40.542 --> 00:20:44.626
The idea of silencing the parent doesn't make sense, nor silencing the child.

00:20:44.626 --> 00:20:47.490
Yeah, exactly so, ruth.

00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:52.516
That brings me to another point in your book and I want to bring something up afterwards.

00:20:52.516 --> 00:21:00.527
But you talk about parents silencing their voices and how we want to reclaim them.

00:21:00.527 --> 00:21:11.557
I pulled a little section out and you write Parents have lost their own voices and need to reclaim them, as words are an important element in building more equal and adult relationships with our kids.

00:21:11.576 --> 00:21:33.442
Unsaid often puts more pressure on loved ones than what is spoken, because the receiver of the silence makes his own interpretation and has little chance to correct the misunderstanding.

00:21:33.442 --> 00:21:44.260
Asking questions or offering opinions that encourage interaction, rather than making pronouncements or remaining silent, can be supportive of a child's independence.

00:21:44.260 --> 00:21:57.416
Sometimes, however, if we wait until our anger has passed, until a moment when we can see the other's perspective, we can select words that are more loving and calm rather than angry or insulted.

00:21:57.416 --> 00:22:05.574
We do this in our work lives After all, we do not confront every situation at the moment it occurs, but wait until we've calmed down.

00:22:05.574 --> 00:22:07.654
Every situation at the moment it occurs, but wait until we've calmed down.

00:22:07.654 --> 00:22:09.436
So that's about self-control.

00:22:09.436 --> 00:22:12.298
It's about really realizing that.

00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:19.325
I know that when my daughter walks into the room before I've even formed the thought, she'll say you don't like this outfit, do you?

00:22:19.325 --> 00:22:20.445
And she's right?

00:22:20.445 --> 00:22:23.633
She's right, she's absolutely right.

00:22:23.633 --> 00:22:24.897
So our children know us.

00:22:24.897 --> 00:22:27.076
They are brilliant psychologists.

00:22:27.076 --> 00:22:32.778
They recognize that raise of the eyebrow, that slight look, that harm.

00:22:32.778 --> 00:22:45.431
So instead of having them misinterpret it there was a great show on the NPR about the mind and how people misinterpret others' actions all the time.

00:22:45.431 --> 00:22:48.359
But if you talk about it, you get a chance to see.

00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.638
Maybe it has a different meaning.

00:22:50.638 --> 00:22:53.617
And I want to go to what Ellen said.

00:22:53.617 --> 00:22:59.355
You said as long as they're paying their phone bill, you know you're okay, I'm not that person.

00:22:59.355 --> 00:23:05.076
I, way down the road, is the job going to sustain them for the rest of their lives?

00:23:05.691 --> 00:23:10.883
But you write a whole section on acknowledging your dreams for yourself and for your child.

00:23:10.883 --> 00:23:13.518
All parents have dreams for their children.

00:23:13.518 --> 00:23:17.641
You know you say goodbye to fantasy and hello to reality.

00:23:17.641 --> 00:23:21.571
Can you talk about that If we're all facing that reality?

00:23:21.571 --> 00:23:23.815
They were going to be president in second grade.

00:23:23.815 --> 00:23:25.596
Don't you know that they were going to be president in second grade?

00:23:25.596 --> 00:23:26.038
Don't you know that?

00:23:26.038 --> 00:23:31.903
And not to mention a terrific ballet dancer and the adventure from the next grade?

00:23:31.903 --> 00:23:33.365
Right, exactly.

00:23:37.950 --> 00:23:40.430
So the first thing is recognizing our conflicting dreams, and certainly in our own lives we lived that.

00:23:40.430 --> 00:23:50.297
We thought we could be the greatest worker on earth and have a fabulous career and a fabulous mother, and it was going to be easy peasy.

00:23:50.297 --> 00:23:52.919
Well, we know how hard it was right.

00:23:52.919 --> 00:23:56.881
So I think it's the reality, facing the reality.

00:23:56.881 --> 00:24:07.678
You have a child who's supporting themselves or not, but living happily, maybe taking the scenic road to adulthood, but this is what you have.

00:24:07.678 --> 00:24:11.939
And so, one of the good things of this, we have our personalities.

00:24:11.939 --> 00:24:17.277
Some of us are classful, some of us are empty, but we can work on that.

00:24:17.277 --> 00:24:30.125
We can say, okay, I know me, I'm thinking, oh, this guy's going to be living on the street because he lost his job yesterday, and that may be true, but probably it's not.

00:24:30.125 --> 00:24:38.169
And maybe thinking about how you yourself first always look to yourself, can maybe begin looking on the positive.

00:24:38.169 --> 00:24:48.701
I think reframing things in a positive way is one of the greatest tools we have, and if your child is a good person and be kind to others and kind to you.

00:24:48.701 --> 00:24:50.613
It's a pretty good thing.

00:24:51.213 --> 00:24:56.570
You know, it's really hard to raise children and we have learned a lot from that.

00:24:56.570 --> 00:25:02.250
Yeah, yeah, it is hard to say goodbye to those dreams, because our children in some ways are.

00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:05.518
We always think of them as our greatest creation.

00:25:05.518 --> 00:25:08.653
This is the best thing I've ever done raising my children.

00:25:08.653 --> 00:25:19.251
Many of us say that and then to think that, well, this is the age where we're like, they're not going to be president, they might not even be a CEO and they might not want that.

00:25:19.251 --> 00:25:30.997
In fact, you know, they start to tell us especially this generation, I'd rather not have that CEO job, I'd rather just live a little bit and not do what you did.

00:25:30.997 --> 00:25:39.744
So a lot of the things that we dream for them aren't happening because they don't want them Absolutely and it's a loss for us in some way.

00:25:39.744 --> 00:25:43.355
Well, I think you've brought up a really important thing.

00:25:43.836 --> 00:25:48.949
So we as parents, our ego, is very much involved with our children.

00:25:48.949 --> 00:25:50.392
It's like our report card.

00:25:50.392 --> 00:25:51.614
You know, did we get an A?

00:25:51.614 --> 00:25:58.432
But the fact of the matter is we don't control that number one and number two.

00:25:58.432 --> 00:26:02.521
We rarely take credit for their successes.

00:26:02.521 --> 00:26:05.357
We mostly take credit for their failures.

00:26:05.357 --> 00:26:13.663
It's because of me that they didn't get an A in exam, forgetting that they went out all night drinking and forgot to study.

00:26:13.663 --> 00:26:18.377
They have some part in this, and I always find that fascinating.

00:26:19.099 --> 00:26:25.398
If I asked a group of parents, what did you do wrong with your kids, the discussion could go on for days.

00:26:25.398 --> 00:26:30.496
If I asked tell me one thing you did right, the silence is deafening.

00:26:30.496 --> 00:26:32.480
Why don't we beat ourselves up like that?

00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:44.451
I think that's absolutely true, so true, and I think and we've discussed this in a couple other podcasts in a different way that parents of adult children don't want to share their struggles and the ego, because the ego's in the way.

00:26:44.451 --> 00:26:48.520
They don't want to say you know, sammy's really struggling because he lost his job.

00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:49.903
The parent won't say that.

00:26:49.903 --> 00:26:52.717
They'll say I'm so proud and it's now been promoted to X, y or Z.

00:26:52.717 --> 00:26:57.576
They won't ask for advice from friends on how to help their adult kid because they're embarrassed.

00:26:57.576 --> 00:27:01.299
Okay, so let me say that's one of the reasons we're quiet.

00:27:01.299 --> 00:27:08.994
The other reason is because out of respect for our children.

00:27:08.994 --> 00:27:09.415
So it's true too.

00:27:09.435 --> 00:27:12.305
That's when, when the kids were little and we were in my day we had the coffee clutch, I think your people, yeah.

00:27:12.305 --> 00:27:13.393
And we had play groups.

00:27:13.393 --> 00:27:14.577
Okay, play you.

00:27:14.577 --> 00:27:19.894
You're in the play group and you say you know I'm having trouble, johnny won't let go of his bottle.

00:27:19.894 --> 00:27:31.919
We talk about that and partly because that whole struggle of whether drinking the with the bottle or the cup is universal and also we're trying to figure it out.

00:27:31.919 --> 00:27:37.037
But now we have to respect our children's privacy, so that makes it a little bit more complicated.

00:27:37.037 --> 00:27:46.130
That's true, it isn't just that we're trying to portray to the world an image, but why is there so much dragging?

00:27:46.292 --> 00:27:52.737
I feel like I go to a dinner and the first thing people say is how's Katie and Charlie, or how's their living Wonderful?

00:27:52.737 --> 00:27:53.519
What you know?

00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.396
They're great, but I try not to go into too many specifics.

00:27:57.396 --> 00:27:59.461
When they're still living here, are they still doing this?

00:27:59.461 --> 00:28:01.636
No, I don't know where to go from there.

00:28:01.636 --> 00:28:07.702
And then the question is are you nervous because of them or because of you, because you are afraid you'll be judged?

00:28:07.702 --> 00:28:09.817
That is a very interesting question.

00:28:09.817 --> 00:28:11.657
We always have to look at ourselves first.

00:28:11.657 --> 00:28:15.340
What is it that troubles us about our friends asking?

00:28:16.069 --> 00:28:28.472
Some people are asking out of genuine love for your kids, and you would probably have a different reaction than with some casual person who was, you know, you met in a football game in sixth grade.

00:28:28.472 --> 00:28:39.534
Definitely, again, it's the relationship of the conversation, and perhaps it's appropriate, with that person who you're not close with when they're asking about your kids, to be a little bit.

00:28:39.534 --> 00:28:41.337
Oh, they're doing great.

00:28:41.337 --> 00:28:42.500
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:45.013
With people that are close to me, I don't mind Right as much.

00:28:45.013 --> 00:28:46.236
Their lives are down as flow.

00:28:46.236 --> 00:28:49.623
No one's getting married, no one's having a baby, no one's changing jobs.

00:28:49.623 --> 00:28:52.876
It's not about me or them, I just don't have much to offer.

00:28:52.876 --> 00:28:58.651
Well, first of all, that's true and perhaps that's appropriate.

00:28:58.651 --> 00:29:05.818
But it's also true that, on the one hand, you are right no one's getting married unless you miss the invitation.

00:29:05.818 --> 00:29:08.201
So what?

00:29:08.201 --> 00:29:14.874
And don't laugh about that, because we are no longer always invited to the wedding You're right and anyway.

00:29:15.134 --> 00:29:27.603
So when a lot is happening in their lives, because life is made up of lots of little everyday things, and one of the things I say to parents is don't make every conversation a big conversation.

00:29:27.603 --> 00:29:31.901
The way we relate to people is through the dailiness of life.

00:29:31.901 --> 00:29:36.582
You know, when life didn't turn, I was so frustrated, I was late.

00:29:36.582 --> 00:29:42.921
You know, it's the little teeny things, and that's a wonderful way to relate to your kids, to start relating to kids.

00:29:42.921 --> 00:29:44.477
Just don't think you enjoy doing.

00:29:45.391 --> 00:29:49.721
And I think, if you look on your relationships, we've had a lot of experience.

00:29:49.721 --> 00:30:01.710
We've changed our relationship from the baby to the toddler, right, we no longer carry kids around, we let them walk all the way to the other side of the room and eventually cross the street and so forth.

00:30:01.710 --> 00:30:10.382
So we've learned how to take the relationship and build it and then gradually, we let them, you know, cross the main streets and go off on their own.

00:30:10.382 --> 00:30:18.757
We also have had experiences in our volunteer life, working with other people in the community, some of whom we liked, some of whom we didn't like.

00:30:18.757 --> 00:30:20.000
And how about at work?

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:22.458
We've worked with a lot of people.

00:30:22.458 --> 00:30:29.532
So, whether it's paid or unpaid, we have learned some lessons in building relationships and also with friends.

00:30:29.773 --> 00:30:31.258
How do you build a new friendship?

00:30:31.258 --> 00:30:36.300
Okay, you meet a person, you start talking, you find things in common, right?

00:30:36.300 --> 00:30:37.826
Oh, you've been to Philly.

00:30:37.826 --> 00:30:40.113
I was in Philly once, right?

00:30:40.113 --> 00:30:41.777
Did you go to the Barnes Museum?

00:30:41.777 --> 00:30:44.682
Oh, you went down to Rittenhouse Square.

00:30:44.682 --> 00:30:45.973
I was once there.

00:30:45.973 --> 00:30:47.419
Tell me about it, right?

00:30:47.419 --> 00:30:51.320
So that's how you begin to build a relationship on little nothings.

00:30:51.320 --> 00:30:53.256
So we're almost starting from scratch.

00:30:53.256 --> 00:30:54.078
Go ahead, ellen.

00:30:54.390 --> 00:31:02.202
What's interesting is that as adults, we approach other adults with children first with asking about their children.

00:31:02.202 --> 00:31:04.633
Do you know what I mean Like in that conversation?

00:31:04.633 --> 00:31:07.460
Why do we do that?

00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:10.773
Why don't I ask you what's going on for you?

00:31:10.773 --> 00:31:14.061
Not what's going on with your children, but what's going on?

00:31:14.061 --> 00:31:23.518
I just feel like we need to put our own sort of self out there and be asking questions of each other about our own lives, even if we're not doing anything.

00:31:23.518 --> 00:31:24.641
What about our inner lives?

00:31:24.641 --> 00:31:30.760
This is a really interesting time of life to grow old, and that's a great way to shift the discussion.

00:31:30.760 --> 00:31:32.003
You know my kids are great.

00:31:32.003 --> 00:31:35.818
You know all's going well there, and I will tell you what I'm doing.

00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:47.981
I'm really excited about this podcast I'm running and so forth, but I would say some of that is quite gendered and ageist in that you know they'll ask the men how's work going?

00:31:47.981 --> 00:31:50.679
How's your golf game Exactly?

00:31:50.679 --> 00:31:52.616
How's retirement if they're not working?

00:31:52.616 --> 00:32:01.056
One of the things I notice now that my hair has turned gray, I say to young people you know I got this for free, that you have to pay for.

00:32:01.056 --> 00:32:05.250
You know now that gray is the fashion that's for young people.

00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:12.861
I notice people are afraid to say to me what are you doing these days, because they don't know if I retire, if I don't.

00:32:12.861 --> 00:32:26.009
I think it's looking at people's effort to communicate rather than the words they say, and just taking it as I'm trying to just connect with you and help them connect.

00:32:26.009 --> 00:32:31.576
You know we can help by telling them something about ourselves and asking about them.

00:32:31.576 --> 00:32:33.138
Yeah, absolutely yeah.

00:32:33.138 --> 00:32:36.229
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00:34:10.751 --> 00:34:12.722
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00:34:13.403 --> 00:34:19.873
The thing I wanted to bring up was and I love this part of your book.

00:34:19.873 --> 00:34:24.728
I'm sure you can talk a lot about it intimacy and irritation go hand in hand.

00:34:24.728 --> 00:34:26.132
Oh, my favorite.

00:34:26.132 --> 00:34:28.746
I have been a strong proponent of this.

00:34:28.746 --> 00:34:46.561
Sometimes my daughter and I will argue about something, to the point that both of us will be in tears and we hug each other at the end and I say this is what brings us closer, absolutely.

00:34:46.561 --> 00:34:48.871
I mean, I think anyone who has had a relationship knows how intimacy and irritation go hand in hand.

00:34:48.871 --> 00:34:50.599
I mean the famous example of the toothpaste cap.

00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:54.911
You know being on or off, do you leave the dishes in the sink, do you not?

00:34:54.911 --> 00:34:58.724
It's all the small things you know, we get to know each other.

00:34:58.724 --> 00:34:59.123
To say, do you not?

00:34:59.123 --> 00:35:00.405
It's all the small things you know, we get to know each other.

00:35:00.405 --> 00:35:09.356
But it's also talking about the difficult things and I think that's don't bite your tongue where sometimes and I want you to talk about this you say it's very important for the parent.

00:35:09.356 --> 00:35:15.025
I know you have to pick the right time and have the tools and all of that, but don't sit on it.

00:35:15.025 --> 00:35:15.304
Talk about it.

00:35:15.324 --> 00:35:28.586
Yes, sometimes, if you're really, really hurting, you can say to the child I need to talk about this because it's bothering me and be clear on that.

00:35:28.586 --> 00:35:33.543
And sometimes you can say to the child I'm going to say it once, I need you to know that you have heard this and then I'm not going to bring it up again.

00:35:33.543 --> 00:35:40.130
So this is often true with various habits, whether it's smoking, eating, you know, whatever.

00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:46.367
If you think you're the first person to say to your child you're overweight, and, of course, what is overweight.

00:35:46.367 --> 00:35:53.608
But you can say I worry about your health, I want you to know that, and then you really have to not say it again.

00:35:53.608 --> 00:35:55.708
That's my biggest problem.

00:35:55.708 --> 00:35:57.304
Yes, for all of us.

00:35:57.304 --> 00:36:04.110
And your body language will come into account, right, because even if you don't say it, are you sure you want that second mindset, right?

00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:06.704
Exactly, that's saying it in a different way.

00:36:06.704 --> 00:36:13.182
Yes, so I have a question that goes to this intimacy and irritation, which I love as well.

00:36:13.702 --> 00:36:22.815
You have some thoughts about visits, long and short visits, and I'm really interested because that sort of gets into that area as well.

00:36:22.815 --> 00:36:33.449
I'm also trying to figure out what's the perfect length of time for me to visit a child who lives out of town, what I have Denise to stay with when I visit my son who lives in Denver.

00:36:33.449 --> 00:36:36.646
But if I didn't have that, what would be?

00:36:36.646 --> 00:36:40.353
And even if you do like, what kind of guidelines do you have?

00:36:40.353 --> 00:36:42.867
Well, first of all, there is no perfect.

00:36:42.867 --> 00:36:45.976

Season 3 Episode 83 Don't Bite Your Tongue with Dr. Ruth Nemzoff

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