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anxiety and the worry and and I've gone through it I just took a massive deep dive into worry and I think one of the things that even I got clarity on as I was writing was that a lot of our worry is connected to control.
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We, as moms, were expected to be in control right, that was a part of our job description and we had to build a control we need.
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We were supposed to be in control right, that was a part of our job description and we had to be able to control.
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We were supposed to be able to curate.
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We were supposed to be able to orchestrate, know what to do, control the environment as much as we could.
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Of course, I think of letting out the rope through the years where they got to have more and more autonomy, but there's still a little voice in all of our heads as moms, I think, that says, oh, you could be doing something about that.
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Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast.
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Join me, your host, denise Gorin, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children.
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Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you.
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Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when to bite our tongues.
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So let's get started.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue the podcast.
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The time is now.
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Drum roll, please.
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I'm going to introduce my new co-host, but before I do, I want to thank so many of you who've reached out with interest in joining our team.
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We actually have a few people who are behind the scenes and have volunteered to help.
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It's so wonderful.
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Thank you, liz.
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Thank you Terry, erica and Jen.
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Jen is actually a young adult who follows us on Instagram and finds the podcast very helpful from the young adult angle.
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I can't thank each of them enough.
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From the young adult angle, I can't thank each of them enough and even though I have a permanent co-host who knows, one of them may pop in from time to time.
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Okay, so who's the new co-host?
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Welcome, kirsten Heckendorf.
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I've known Kirsten for a long time as she lives in Denver.
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We knew of each other but our paths really didn't cross.
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Coincidentally, she started working for a music website, val's List, out of Chicago.
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Val, the founder of Val's List, happens to be a dear childhood friend of mine from Youngstown, ohio.
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Val actually co-hosted an episode with me, with Susan Engle, season two, episode 22.
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So I got to know Kirsten a bit better through Val and she reached out and you know I thought it would be great to have someone local.
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She's the parent of three adult children.
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She has a great perspective on parenting and is willing to work hard with me and for all of you.
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So welcome, kirsten, to Bite your Tongue.
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We're so happy you're taking this journey with us.
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Thank you, Denise.
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I am so excited and honored to be here.
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I had so much fun co-hosting with you on the Joshua Coleman episode, I thought why not give this a go permanently?
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So I'm ready to get to work and I may as well start by letting listeners know about our exciting guest.
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Today.
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We're welcoming Pam Tronson, a certified life coach with a specialty in mother-daughter relationships.
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She actually trained with one of your earlier guests, Roshka Hasseldine, so you can listen to that episode with Roshka on our website or on any podcast platform, from Apple to Spotify or anything in between.
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I love that episode with Roshka, and I have a daughter who just turned 35.
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So I love that episode and I know this one's going to be great too.
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It's a topic everyone seems to want to talk about.
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I think it's really important.
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Not only are we mothers of daughters, but we're also daughters of our own mothers.
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So I found that kind of an interesting little twist I was thinking about the other day.
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But I'm fortunate, I have a good relationship with my daughter.
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But that hasn't happened, naturally, without some struggle from both of us from time to time and, I'm sure, at the right times teenage years and all that.
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But what strikes me about the struggles, not just with mothers and daughters, but families in general, is that we're living in a time when people are craving connections and yet at the same time it's so difficult, and I don't know why it has to be so difficult.
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No, you're absolutely right.
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I was talking to someone this morning and I think we all have much closer relationships with our kids than probably previous generations.
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But I want to say two things to what you just said.
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One, you're lucky to have your mother, and that makes sense that you're going to see this from both angles.
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I've lost my mother, but I still, when I listen to these things, I think, oh, I could have been a better adult daughter.
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The other thing I want to say is you mentioned the teenage years and such.
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For me, the teenage years were nothing.
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It's been the young adult years that's been much harder.
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So I think for everyone, yeah, it's just a different ball game.
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So on to Pam.
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Now, before I do the formal introduction, I want to tell you every Monday she sends out a message and you can sign up for a message through her website, which is PamTronsonCoachingcom, and I'll put a link to that in our episode notes.
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But every week I find something I love, and I said to Pam when she was joining us today I just read your things and I, like you, there's just something about her.
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But this week she talked about conflict and she asked readers to examine how they handle conflict and if it doesn't work, how they can reframe.
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It really hit home for me, because hard for me to admit, but I am the person that argues.
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So when conflict hits me, I many times want to prove I'm the right one.
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And you know what?
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I do this with my adult daughter sometimes and I realized how much I have to stop because there's no right or wrong in this.
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So it made me really kind of rethink anything.
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But anyway, I just wanted to share that Before I get in again.
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She is going to tell us about herself and how she got into this, but I want her to read something that I think I read on her website.
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So I wonder, pam, would you read that piece of copy that I sent to you earlier?
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Absolutely.
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There are words on my website.
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There are also words on my heart, I think I love and adore both of my daughters, yet I was frustrated and confused by the relationship that was unfolding with each of them.
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It looked nothing like what I had imagined it would be, and it often consumed me.
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How could there be such angst between me and these beautiful souls?
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I believe I had given my all to, and when I looked around, all I could see were the moms who seemed to be able to successfully work through that which I could not.
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What had I done wrong?
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What had I missed?
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I just get chills.
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I don't know why, but I think there are so many parents, and moms in particular, that feel that way.
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When you have a young adult and Kirsten and I were talking about this a little bit earlier we all try our very best, absolutely, and when things go awry it's hard.
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But anyway, welcome Pam, we're happy to have you.
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Please share with our listeners a little bit more about you, your story, because I'd like that to come from you rather than from us Sure.
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Well, first and foremost, can I just say, denise, how thrilled I was when you reached out to me.
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I literally did the happy dance, thinking that there was someone out there who was bringing the spotlight to the relationship us moms have with our kids.
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Because there's a general assumption, I think, in the world that, oh yeah, once you're an empty nester, everything is lovely, the kids leave, and then their lives are great and our lives are great and nobody talks about it.
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And it's challenging I mean especially now all the different things that are going on in our world and for our kids' world things that are going on in our world and for our kids' world and the fact that you're doing this.
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I'm so happy that you've taken the time and made the effort.
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And I'm honored to be here today to be able to chat with you.
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Well, we're happy to have you, and this is Kirsten's first episode as my new co-host, so she is putting her mark on this too, and we both know that this is all we talk about with our friends, so why not make a public forum for it?
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Anyway, go ahead.
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Well for me, I decided back in the 80s that I wanted to be a life coach which sounds kind of odd because I don't know that there was such a thing back then but I had worked with Tony Robbins, both as as a participant and then I had worked as a volunteer.
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It was when he was still getting started and he didn't have the big staff that he had, and I just decided I'd watched so many people have these epic transformations in their lives.
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I was maybe one of them and I knew that's what I wanted to do, and clearly it took me a little while to get here.
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But in 2018, I had my second certification in life coaching and it was when I started to take it on as my full-time occupation.
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And it was funny because everybody talks about niching down, like what are you going to specialize in?
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For a lot of people, it's the thing that they've had the most challenges with, and for me, I was like, well, I didn't know what I'm going to do because my life's been really great and, yes, I'm on my second marriage.
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You know I always say you only get married twice, but I was like my life seemed to be going pretty well.
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It wasn't like I thought I was suffering in any way and I think the universe heard me and went oh, let's give her something to suffer about.
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And that was when things started to kind of get a little rocky.
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I have two adult daughters.
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They're both in their 20s and things got really challenging and it was really hard and it was like okay, so here's what I'm going to apply all of my life coaching to.
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And I worked through so much and I was making so much progress and at the time I was kind of a general life coach for women in their forties, fifties, sixties kind of thing.
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I was off on a retail therapy afternoon and walked into the store and saw this coaster that said you are the mom everyone wishes they had.
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And I flat out lost it right there in the store and it was just like dagger in my heart.
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But I'd been doing so much work.
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I was like, damn it, I am buying this thing for myself in honor to the work that I've been doing.
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And I left and I was sitting in my driveway with the mascara stains on the front of been doing.
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And I left and I was sitting in my driveway with the mascara stains on the front of my face and it was like I got this sensor.
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I heard this voice, or whatever it was, that said you're not done yet, and I was.
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When you talk about conflict styles, I was one of those people who would go, oh, I really messed that up.
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Okay, I'm going to pretend that never happened.
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I'm going to go over here.
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I wasn't good at addressing things and it was like my rally cry that no, I still had years to become the mom that I'd always wished I would be or I always hoped to be, and I was in the habit of making a video every week and I made a video about my experience.
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I don't really know what having a video go viral means, but it was on Instagram and, before I knew it, I had a following and what was funny well, maybe not funny, no-transcript to see that the shame is what drags us into a corner and makes us incompetent and makes us the thing that gets in the way of the repair that's needed.
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I just want to say something as you say this and I apologize because I should never interrupt a guest, but I didn't want to forget what you said about you still had time to make a change, and what I'm realizing as a parent of adult children is and I've said this on a couple other episodes this is actually the longest relationship we'll ever have with them.
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All that we did being room parents or running them to soccer, or making sure they were in the right school did their homework I mean it mattered, but not like this second stage does now, because we have a chance for a real relationship.
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We were a parent back then.
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Now, as they say, we're almost like a consultant and we have to be there, but not over.
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Be there, does that?
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make sense and it's a huge learning curve.
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I don't know.
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Did you feel that way, Kirsten?
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It's a learning curve.
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They don't listen to everything you say anymore.
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They don't listen to most of what you say initially and then almost guaranteed they come back later and they say I know you told me this, but and you were right, and yes, if I had really just learned the lesson to have listened to you from the beginning, anyway, with everything, I'd be good.
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Sometimes, Anyway, go ahead.
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Pam, yeah Well.
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And then I give the advice and I'm like, who was that?
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Am I doing that?
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Like, oh, that's interesting ahead.
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Pam, yeah Well.
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And then I give the advice and I'm like, who was that?
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Am I doing that?
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Like, oh, that's interesting perspective, pam, how about you apply that to your life?
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But yes, no, completely, I know what you're saying, but yeah, so that's how I got to be where I'm at.
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And I have to say it's funny.
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I had a couple of people different coaches that I work with, where I said I'm thinking of niching down and I want to work.
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I just want to work with moms who have challenging relationships with their adult daughters, and the response I got a number of times was like, well, you know, I don't really know if there's a market for that, and I was thinking one of them was a man.
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So you know thank you?
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Yeah, thank you.
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I was going to say that.
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Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
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Wait a minute, we've got male listeners.
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Kirsten Stop, they know a lot.
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Anyway, go ahead.
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No, we're not busting on anyone.
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I'm teasing.
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I'm teasing and I know you're teasing.
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It's something that we, I don't know.
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Like I say, we just all dialed.
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And then in the intro that you asked me to read, that's one of our biggest curses is, we look at all of the other people who think they've got it dialed.
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We think that they somehow are doing something right and we're somehow doing something wrong, and it's just another aspect of it that inevitably will sink the boat.
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Do you think social media plays into that?
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We're seeing everyone else's play out in front of us.
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Oh yeah, I mean absolutely.
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But when we can recognize how that's affecting us and our lives.
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Think of the impact it's having on our kids.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I'm kind of happy to be in my 60s.
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I wouldn't want to be going through that right now in my life.
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I just think that social media is awesome, the internet is awesome, and it's also just another one of those things that you just got to learn how to get it on a short leash.
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All right, so let's get on to some of this.
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What are some of the most common challenges or conflicts that you think arise between mothers and daughters?
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Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, denise.
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There is an aspect I mean, like our generation, we have been so involved in our kids' lives.
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I was raised in a family where you had to come home for dinner when the streetlights came on and my parents had no idea where I was half the time Schools, grades they knew nothing of that.
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And not that I had neglectful no no, no, all of us grew up that way.
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All of us grew up that way.
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Yeah, amazing parents, but they weren't involved in our lives.
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But I think there's a generational turnover.
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I feel sorry for my mom.
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I was a wild child.
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I was everybody's nightmare, I bet.
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But I experienced that and came out of it with the idea of, oh, it's going to be different when I'm a mom.
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I'm not going to, that's going to be.
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Those things will change when I'm a mom and that's been happening for generation after generation after generation after generation.
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We as a whole parent in response to the way we were parented and you see the ebbs and flows of the different kinds of attitudes towards it.
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But that's one of the things like it's just, it's just different.
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We're so much more involved and then all of a sudden we get to this part where we're supposed to like go sit in the stands.
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It can feel like a jumping off the bridge moment, because there's a moment when we're they call us all the time in college, or we're so involved in their life and they're, you know, their boy.
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They get told about their boyfriends and their what are we thinking about for career and all this kind of stuff.
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And I always use the analogy.
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We've been the coach on the field with them year after year after year after year, and then all of a sudden, the next season starts and you're asked to go, sit in the stands and watch and applaud when things go well and go, oh, when they drop a pass.
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But no one's asking you like.
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It's not your job to be the coach anymore.
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And crossing that bridge is is very challenging, and a lot of women get so wrapped up in the identity of, of, of being that amazing mom, that it's hard to put the fork down and step away from the table.
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But it's necessary for the evolution of this beautiful being that you gave birth to.
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They now need to go on and create their own life and create their own people and find their people.
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It's how it's supposed to happen.
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But we're like the little puppy.
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No, no, no, no.
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See me, feel me, touch me, pet me.
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It's like no, no, no, no, no, see me, feel me, touch me, pet me.
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It's like no, no, no, no, no.
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You can't do this without me, can you?
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And again, forgive me, I always make the analogy.
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I always knew I was going to have daughters and I was like when I have daughters, they are going to be strong, confident, independent, scrappy, capable women that can speak up for themselves and do all those things.
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And then it happened.
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I was like I just that that took me a minute.
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That took me a minute.
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So what you're saying, yeah, then they became capable and everything, and you were further back in the stands.
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Oh, yeah, then I became obsolete.
00:19:00.165 --> 00:19:05.909
I kept thinking if I would have just put some fine print into the contract that said and be you always.
00:19:05.909 --> 00:19:07.251
Be really nice to your mom.
00:19:07.251 --> 00:19:10.087
I know that they're not nice, but it's exactly what we wanted.
00:19:10.087 --> 00:19:12.920
And then it's happening and we're like you know.
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:26.765
Well, the other thing I think that's funny too, and I know you will both relate to this is when they call us and they go on and on and on because they want to share something, and it may be they got into a fight with a girlfriend or whatever.
00:19:26.765 --> 00:19:41.756
They get it all out, they leave the room or they drop the phone and you are still thinking about this and then a week goes by, you haven't heard from your kid, and the next time you talk to them you're kind of like, okay, so what happened?
00:19:41.756 --> 00:19:43.181
What are you talking about?
00:19:43.181 --> 00:19:44.564
Or, oh, and that was nothing.
00:19:45.766 --> 00:19:46.768
No, that's absolutely true.
00:19:46.768 --> 00:19:48.010
We keep it and keep it and keep it.
00:19:48.010 --> 00:19:49.773
But so what are the strategies?
00:19:49.773 --> 00:19:58.298
So a parent and a mother comes to you, or a mother, maybe sometimes the adult child you said also will come to you, or do they sometimes come together?
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.647
Yeah, I've had a lot of times people will come together.
00:20:00.647 --> 00:20:07.080
I have always.
00:20:07.080 --> 00:20:09.925
I'm going to say, most of my clients are the moms and I love it that way, to be honest, because I am a firm believer.
00:20:09.925 --> 00:20:12.590
It only takes one person.
00:20:12.590 --> 00:20:14.601
It's physics right.
00:20:14.601 --> 00:20:20.641
If one person can change, it will dramatically improve the dynamics of the relationship.
00:20:20.641 --> 00:20:28.401
And I figure I've been on this planet for 35 years, 38 years longer than they have.
00:20:28.401 --> 00:20:29.221
Why not?
00:20:29.221 --> 00:20:30.404
Why shouldn't it be me?
00:20:30.525 --> 00:20:35.122
Let's get to your office, okay, and what are the kinds of strategies?
00:20:35.122 --> 00:20:37.247
I think everything you said is exactly right.
00:20:37.247 --> 00:20:47.506
We all were very over-involved and, as you said that you say you work with the moms I fully believe we have a lot of work to do because we were used to being on the field coaching.
00:20:47.506 --> 00:20:54.450
I always use the analogy of the theater you were on the stage, then you were in the orchestra, then you were in the mezzanine.
00:20:54.450 --> 00:21:06.730
All of a sudden, you're out in the lobby, so you don't even know what's going on, which is exactly like you said, what it's supposed to be, and I can intellectually talk about that a hundred times and say that's where I'm supposed to be, blah, blah, blah.
00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:17.843
But when you don't get that call, or no one's going to be home for Christmas or all of that, which is okay, it has to be okay, they have their lives how do you counsel us?
00:21:18.443 --> 00:21:41.603
Of course it's different depending on the person sitting in front of me, one of the things that I think I start with every single sessions, of all the sessions that I do in order to have and I know I'm not going to be the first person on your show that's ever said this, but in order to have a better relationship with anything in your life, you have to have a better relationship with your own self, and we often start there.
00:21:42.384 --> 00:21:48.661
I get a lot of moms that come to me that either feel just beleaguered and beaten down.
00:21:48.760 --> 00:21:51.826
Either they're there or they're just so damn angry.
00:21:52.989 --> 00:22:08.953
It starts with being able to be able to find your center, get back to your center, confidence building, and I think one of the greatest things to build our confidence is to be able to understand how our mind's working and how we're processing what's happening to us.
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:35.762
So we spent a lot of time in the beginning working on having a better understanding of what it is that we're putting out there and how it could potentially be perceived, and part of it or maybe the next step is to be able to walk a mile in their shoes, gain some compassion and insight into what your kids are going through, to create perspective.
00:22:35.762 --> 00:22:47.503
As to, one of my favorite questions is what else could be true, just to be able to understand what it is that they're dealing with, what they're going through, and not making it just about us.
00:22:47.503 --> 00:22:55.430
And a third component is understanding what it would look like like what we want to see happen.
00:22:55.430 --> 00:22:56.472
What's the change?