Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Feb. 24, 2025

Understanding Modern Parenting: A Grandparent's Guide to Support

Understanding Modern Parenting: A Grandparent's Guide to Support
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Season 5

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This episode is a "must listen" for an parent of an adult child on the brink of welcoming a grandchild. 

We are thrilled to bring you a special episode with the wise and compassionate Kimberly Beppler, The Grandparent Doula.  

Kimberly enlightens us with her journey from assisting postpartum families to recognizing the irreplaceable role grandparents can play in this delicate phase. We uncover her innovative approach of crafting a "menu" of support options, ensuring grandparents provide meaningful help without stepping on toes. 

It's an episode of advice for those eager to strengthen family bonds while honoring the autonomy and boundaries of new parents.

Our conversation shifts to the fresh landscape of parenting and grandparenting, where emotional intelligence reigns supreme among millennials and Gen Z. This era demands a recalibration of old norms, as we explore the evolving expectations and challenges grandparents face today. Kimberly's insights highlight the delicate balance of offering support while respecting the independence and parenting styles of our children. Together, we navigate the fine line between being a source of wisdom and avoiding the imposition of outdated solutions, all while championing patience and empathy.

We also tackle the modern pressures surrounding parenting, with a focus on breastfeeding and the overwhelming sea of information new parents encounter. Balancing personal needs with familial responsibilities also takes center stage, as we share strategies for maintaining emotional and physical well-being, ensuring grandparents remain a vibrant and nurturing presence in the lives of their families. 

A special call out to a product we love: Curiocity Travel Guides. The greatest tool of discovery and keepsake for traveling with kiddos. Listen for more on today's episode. 

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US!  Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select

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Chapters

00:03 - Grandparent Doula Provides Insightful Advice

10:37 - Navigating Grandparent-Parent Boundaries

19:31 - Navigating Grandparent-Parent Interactions

29:48 - Navigating Parent-Grandparent Relationship

38:24 - Supporting Parents in Modern Breastfeeding

42:16 - Navigating Modern Parenting Pressures

47:14 - Balancing Support and Self-Care for Grandparents

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:03.185 --> 00:00:11.470
Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast, and happy February, happy Valentine's Day and it's my birthday month, so kind of exciting for me.

00:00:11.470 --> 00:00:25.562
I'm Denise, and while we may not be releasing episodes as frequently these days, we're still here to bring you valuable insights and conversations with experts to help you navigate and strengthen your relationships with your adult children.

00:00:25.562 --> 00:00:28.307
That's what Bite your Tongue is all about.

00:00:28.307 --> 00:00:33.701
Today's topic is especially close to my heart.

00:00:33.701 --> 00:00:40.582
If you caught our last episode in season four, you've heard the exciting news I'm going to be a grandma.

00:00:40.582 --> 00:00:45.432
Honestly, guys, I'm still processing it because I really never thought it would happen.

00:00:45.432 --> 00:00:47.384
And here we are Now.

00:00:47.384 --> 00:00:52.582
I want to make sure I get off on the right foot and hopefully it's helpful to all of you too.

00:00:53.765 --> 00:00:56.710
So today we're going to talk all about grandparenting.

00:00:56.710 --> 00:00:59.463
I'm thrilled to have Kimberly Beppler with us.

00:00:59.463 --> 00:01:02.548
Kimberly is known as the grandparent doula.

00:01:02.548 --> 00:01:04.230
Yes, you heard that right.

00:01:04.230 --> 00:01:05.733
Kimberly is known as the grandparent doula.

00:01:05.733 --> 00:01:08.739
Yes, you heard that right grandparent doula.

00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:16.731
Her mission is to help grandparents become the loving, supportive and a non-intrusive presence in their grandchildren's lives and, of course, their adult children.

00:01:16.731 --> 00:01:19.808
So, without further ado, let's dive in.

00:01:19.808 --> 00:01:21.846
Kimberly, welcome to the show.

00:01:21.846 --> 00:01:24.599
We're so excited to have you here Now.

00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:32.525
You're the only one I could find that really deals with grandparents, so why did you decide to become a grandparent?

00:01:32.587 --> 00:01:36.009
doula hearing the parent perspective for 25 years.

00:01:36.009 --> 00:01:55.631
And all of a sudden I was just literally sitting at my computer reading about postpartum and I thought I have spent the majority of my career trying to make a dent in what postpartum looks like for families.

00:01:55.631 --> 00:02:04.001
I just had sort of an epiphany moment to say how am I going to actually change postpartum like, really make a revolution in postpartum?

00:02:04.001 --> 00:02:07.004
And I thought we have to get the grandparents involved.

00:02:07.004 --> 00:02:18.844
They're the only ones with the resources, the love, the devotion that would dive in and do postpartum and if you look at it from historical perspective, that's what grandparents have always done.

00:02:18.844 --> 00:02:24.526
But we're kind of being excluded right now, which has long lasting repercussions.

00:02:24.526 --> 00:02:52.010
And so I just thought I need to change the perspective of grandparents to provide the postpartum care that sets families off and reduces depression and increases parent confidence, increases bonding, increases breastfeeding rates just like I've been doing for doulas but put it in the hands of these wise lovers of their children, devoted parents who want to make a difference but don't necessarily know how, because they were never taught to do that.

00:02:52.010 --> 00:02:56.872
I mean, postpartum care hasn't been present in our culture for four or five generations at least.

00:02:56.872 --> 00:03:02.810
But they're in collective cultures but it's not in our individualistic culture, and I thought this is what I got to do.

00:03:02.810 --> 00:03:04.719
I got to train the grandparents and then I thought this is what I got to do.

00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:06.081
I got to train the grandparents and then I thought how am I going to do that?

00:03:06.081 --> 00:03:06.701
Are they going to want to listen to me?

00:03:06.701 --> 00:03:07.782
I don't know.

00:03:08.562 --> 00:03:17.609
And then I read Joshua Coleman's book about estrangement and it broke my heart to read it and I yet I thought this is the time.

00:03:17.609 --> 00:03:46.002
I've had this goal to bring parents and grandparents together for years, but I was so busy working as a doula, building up my doula agency, training new doulas I didn't really have the time and I just kind of had a step back moment and thought, if I'm going to help people avoid estrangement or heal estrangement, I have to start focusing on the people that have the time, the investment, the energy and who desire this so much and who are having their hearts broken.

00:03:46.002 --> 00:03:52.245
Because rarely are you hearing from grown kids and new parents that their hearts are broken, that they're estranged.

00:03:52.245 --> 00:03:54.872
They're usually the ones doing the estranging.

00:03:54.872 --> 00:03:57.125
The grandparents are the heartbroken ones.

00:03:57.125 --> 00:03:59.431
I thought this is the population I need to serve.

00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.026
So let me ask you a quick, broad question.

00:04:02.026 --> 00:04:04.372
You know I'm going to be a grandmother in April.

00:04:04.372 --> 00:04:07.006
My daughter and her husband live quite a distance.

00:04:07.006 --> 00:04:13.163
If you were going to give me one piece of advice as I begin this journey, what would you say?

00:04:14.866 --> 00:04:23.810
I would say make very specific offerings about what you can do and then let your grown kids pick from those offerings.

00:04:23.810 --> 00:04:25.372
We call it a menu.

00:04:25.372 --> 00:04:28.810
So basically, in my class, I teach the grandparents make a menu.

00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:29.944
Here's all the things you can do.

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Figure out what you want to do, offer it to your kids and let them choose from what you want to do, versus doing all the things that they might expect you to do or expecting them to want the things that you offer them.

00:04:43.947 --> 00:05:01.562
Be very clear about what you could do and what you want to do and then, when they give you feedback, be as positive as possible and do the things that matter to them and let the other things go, even though you might have really wanted to do it what sort of thing might a grandmother really want to do that the child might really not.

00:05:01.802 --> 00:05:05.541
Maybe the child only wants help with cooking and cleaning and not touching the baby at all.

00:05:05.541 --> 00:05:07.187
Is that the kind of thing you're thinking about?

00:05:07.206 --> 00:05:10.466
Very much, so I have a lot of grandparents who want to be in the delivery room.

00:05:10.565 --> 00:05:11.951
They want to be there the first week.

00:05:12.050 --> 00:05:17.281
They really, really want to help in a way that they can kiss the baby and connect with the baby, hold the baby.

00:05:17.281 --> 00:05:20.024
And parents are not looking for a lot of that support right now.

00:05:20.024 --> 00:05:24.790
They don't want their parents in the delivery room, they don't want them even there in the first week.

00:05:24.790 --> 00:05:31.805
They want to learn how to manage their baby without their parents so they can feel like they're doing it, especially that first baby.

00:05:31.805 --> 00:05:35.822
I find they're a little more amenable with the second and the third.

00:05:35.822 --> 00:05:38.930
The first one they really want to prove to themselves they can do it.

00:05:39.552 --> 00:05:49.055
I find a lot of grandparents just waiting in the wings, like waiting for news and waiting for pictures and waiting to be invited, and they're they're not likely to be invited into those spaces.

00:05:49.055 --> 00:05:54.050
So to say, here's all the things I'd love to do in the form of a menu.

00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:56.043
Right, we never order everything on the menu.

00:05:56.043 --> 00:05:57.406
We pick the things that we want.

00:05:57.406 --> 00:06:13.790
So if we say here's some, here's some menu items I can do, and then your kids pick and then you just stick to the things they want, you might be really sad about the things that they don't want, but you don't really get to choose it, so you have to cope with it in every way that you can.

00:06:13.790 --> 00:06:19.043
I think being prepared in advance gives you time to let go of those things to say like they don't want me in the delivery room.

00:06:19.103 --> 00:06:28.475
I really had it in my head that I was going to be there and this where I wanted to be, and you just have a chance to let go of that and say this isn't where they want me, I'm not going to.

00:06:28.475 --> 00:06:30.043
I'm not going to have this moment.

00:06:30.043 --> 00:06:32.235
I'm going to have to have other moments that matter to me.

00:06:32.416 --> 00:06:35.425
I'm just going to tell you what happened in my situation.

00:06:35.425 --> 00:06:37.690
I really respected exactly what you said.

00:06:37.690 --> 00:06:41.682
My daughter and her husband said they really want some time at the beginning and she was due late April.

00:06:41.682 --> 00:06:42.963
She said I the beginning and she was due late April.

00:06:42.963 --> 00:06:43.803
She said I'd love you to come.

00:06:43.803 --> 00:06:46.567
A few weeks later I made flights to go in May.

00:06:46.567 --> 00:06:56.673
Then a couple of weeks ago she said you know what, mom, I think I really want you there before the baby's born Now, not to go to the delivery room, not to help.

00:06:56.673 --> 00:07:09.821
But she said you're the only person I can trust to take care of the dog, take care of the house.

00:07:09.821 --> 00:07:10.845
When we leave, they don't have any family there.

00:07:10.845 --> 00:07:12.129
So I'm starting to feel like I'm so glad to be asked.

00:07:12.129 --> 00:07:12.790
But then I realized I said so.

00:07:12.790 --> 00:07:14.336
Then when you come home from the hospital, you want me to leave.

00:07:14.336 --> 00:07:15.077
And she was sort of silent.

00:07:15.077 --> 00:07:15.478
But is that common?

00:07:15.478 --> 00:07:17.887
I mean, does that feel overly demanding to you?

00:07:17.887 --> 00:07:19.793
Nope, that's very very common.

00:07:20.173 --> 00:07:26.970
Absolutely Especially with a first time couple, especially when they're having babies a little bit later, like in their 30s.

00:07:26.970 --> 00:07:28.874
They have a very established life.

00:07:28.874 --> 00:07:33.011
They're not leaning on their parents for very many things at that point.

00:07:33.011 --> 00:07:46.002
They often have pets that they love, like their children, and so for you to care for their pets feels like you're loving the grandbabies, because they don't have babies yet and they don't really know the difference between a pet and a baby.

00:07:46.002 --> 00:07:49.701
That is their baby and their real baby arrives and they're like oh wow, you're a pet.

00:07:49.701 --> 00:07:52.975
Take some realization of the love that you have for a human.

00:07:52.975 --> 00:07:54.721
That really is meaningful to them.

00:07:54.721 --> 00:07:59.740
That's like you coming and caretaking for their older kids and it brings their anxiety down.

00:08:00.182 --> 00:08:15.865
Because one of the biggest things I hear from postpartum parents I'm a bad dog mom, I'm a bad cat mom, I'm not loving my pets Because they've got what five, ten years invested in those pets, Like they've been an outpouring of their love, and now they give all that to their baby and they're trying to hold it together.

00:08:15.865 --> 00:08:18.387
They feel like you're loving them that way.

00:08:18.387 --> 00:08:20.786
So, yeah, I don't think that's too demanding.

00:08:20.786 --> 00:08:25.721
I think that's too demanding.

00:08:25.721 --> 00:08:27.629
I think that's pretty common, Pretty common and I would say that speaks to their value, right?

00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:33.369
Their value is make sure my home is okay and not all food in my refrigerator is rotting if we're in the hospital for three days, Right, right.

00:08:33.389 --> 00:08:48.183
But I would also say from a grandparent perspective, putting you in the vicinity of where your kids are when their babies first come home means you have umpteen more opportunities to support them when they decide that they need it.

00:08:48.183 --> 00:08:57.552
If you are far away and can't, they're not going to have you fly in, but if you're in a friends and things are falling apart, bingo, you are in.

00:08:57.552 --> 00:08:58.033
Right.

00:08:58.033 --> 00:09:00.365
They're going to be like mom, come back, we need you.

00:09:00.365 --> 00:09:04.363
And now you have the opportunity to be needed, maybe in a way that you want to be.

00:09:04.363 --> 00:09:18.846
And I think if you're creating that distance, you wouldn't be utilized and then you might miss out on some really cool memories where your kids really do need you and you get to kind of swoop in and be the helper and be the snuggler.

00:09:19.869 --> 00:09:27.451
How has the role of grandparenting changed today versus previous generations that you'd like us, as grandparents, to understand?

00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.149
Yeah, this is the biggest shock for a lot of the grandparents in my classes.

00:09:31.149 --> 00:09:34.399
Is they really sort of think of the way grandparenting was for them, right?

00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:51.211
Maybe a relationship they have with their grandparents or maybe the way that they saw their kids being grandparented by their own parents and we have this huge respect and admiration and honor for older generations and that is not present in our culture.

00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:57.424
Well, joshua Coleman I think it was either Joshua Coleman or Larry Steinberg said gone are the days of honor.

00:09:57.424 --> 00:09:58.528
They father and mother.

00:09:58.850 --> 00:10:10.107
Yep, and now the respect is going toward the grown kids and I would say it's not equal respect, it is more respect, more respect for the kids than for the older generations.

00:10:10.107 --> 00:10:21.393
And while I understand the mindset that brings that, it's not the mindset we grew up with, it's not the mindset we experienced, it's not the mindset we showed to our older generation.

00:10:21.393 --> 00:10:30.268
So we're kind of getting screwed, basically because we had to give respect to the other generations and now we have to give respect to our kids and we're like respect.

00:10:31.389 --> 00:10:32.874
Why has this happened?

00:10:32.874 --> 00:10:34.437
I think about holidays.

00:10:34.437 --> 00:10:36.283
What has changed?

00:10:37.471 --> 00:10:57.477
I get asked this a lot and I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a psychologist, but what I can say is the awareness of emotional intelligence has grown significantly in millennials and Gen Z, and now that they're having kids, they're looking at what's really integral to those kids and they're saying this is the most important thing.

00:10:57.477 --> 00:11:00.302
The way my parents feel is not important.

00:11:00.302 --> 00:11:07.820
This is important, and the way I'm going to do this well is by having support, not by giving, not by thinking about others.

00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:17.740
That's the only way that I've made sense of it, because it seems so selfish and entitled to think you're the only one that matters in a relationship, right?

00:11:17.740 --> 00:11:21.897
But I also think we grew our kids in a fairly peaceful time.

00:11:21.897 --> 00:11:31.142
We devoted our attention to their self-esteem, we didn't raise as gritty a generation because we didn't have gritty circumstances.

00:11:31.261 --> 00:11:35.255
I grew up on a farm and had to do chores and I was working outside.

00:11:35.255 --> 00:11:40.245
Right, my kids grew up in the suburbs and emptied the dishwasher and vacuum.

00:11:40.245 --> 00:11:41.354
It's just a different.

00:11:41.354 --> 00:11:42.839
They aren't as gritty.

00:11:42.839 --> 00:11:44.293
I mean they're amazing, but they're.

00:11:44.293 --> 00:11:47.155
That's just not who they are and I'm to blame, right?

00:11:47.155 --> 00:11:48.789
I wanted to solve all their problems.

00:11:48.789 --> 00:11:56.635
I was that helicopter or lawnmower or whatever parent that is now judged very heavily for all this love and attention.

00:11:57.129 --> 00:11:59.260
I'm dying to know what this next generation is going to do.

00:11:59.260 --> 00:12:03.379
But also, we were probably the first generation that had therapists in our children's lives.

00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:07.192
I'm shocked how many kids are in therapy starting in elementary school.

00:12:07.192 --> 00:12:11.811
So they're learning all of this boundaries and self-awareness and all that kind of stuff.

00:12:11.811 --> 00:12:20.423
I didn't even know what a boundary was when I started this podcast and they're really not the way that they've been taught, the way their exercise is.

00:12:20.605 --> 00:12:26.418
Walls, gates, you know, unbreakable fence.

00:12:26.418 --> 00:12:28.402
A boundary is not that.

00:12:28.402 --> 00:12:31.052
A boundary is if you do this, then I will do this.

00:12:31.052 --> 00:12:32.014
Right it's.

00:12:32.014 --> 00:12:46.101
I'm trying to protect myself, but the way boundaries are used a lot for grandparents is you will not, you cannot do not, and that's really trying to control someone else's behavior, which doesn't sit well with us as parents and grandparents.

00:12:46.101 --> 00:12:48.890
Right, we don't want to be told how to do it.

00:12:48.890 --> 00:12:56.261
We raised those kids, we earned it and we shouldn't have to be told you have to, you can't.

00:12:56.261 --> 00:13:05.751
Except that we really want to honor what their wishes are and it really helps them to feel like they have control over one aspect.

00:13:05.751 --> 00:13:11.676
When newborns really don't give you much control over anything, right, it's a this world shock of I'm.

00:13:11.676 --> 00:13:15.548
In my career, I know how to orchestrate things, I can delegate, I can make decisions.

00:13:15.548 --> 00:13:21.075
Now, all of a sudden, you have this helpless baby that you love, with everything in you that you can't make do anything.

00:13:21.075 --> 00:13:23.681
You can't make them sleep in the bassinet.

00:13:23.900 --> 00:13:25.451
You cannot make them feed the way you want.

00:13:25.451 --> 00:13:26.635
You don't have the schedule control.

00:13:26.635 --> 00:13:49.898
Their world is turned upside down and they need us, but they also don't have any capacity for looking at what's important for us, because they just they just need our help and so we have to kind of manage our own needs outside of getting them to recognize that, and that that's hard, that's really hard as a grandparent to think.

00:13:49.898 --> 00:13:51.784
I served and I laid down my life at raising you and then you were on your own.

00:13:51.784 --> 00:13:52.407
Yay, I made you independent.

00:13:52.407 --> 00:13:52.969
Good job.

00:13:52.969 --> 00:13:54.514
And now you need me again.

00:13:55.157 --> 00:14:06.520
Like when is the part where you just give me the baby and let me hold them, and then you tell them that I'm a great grandparent and I'm doing great Like when is the part that we get to rest and not work?

00:14:06.671 --> 00:14:09.847
Because it kind of feels like we're being pulled in both directions.

00:14:09.847 --> 00:14:18.643
Right, if we have living parents, we're probably doing some caregiving for the parents, and if we have grandkids, we might be doing some caregiving for our kids or our grandkids.

00:14:18.643 --> 00:14:25.532
It just feels like when do we get the joy, like the ease and the joy?

00:14:25.532 --> 00:14:40.860
And so I see a lot of grandparents who are pretty ticked off that this is the culture that we live in, and yet the recognition for postpartum makes us refocus to say this isn't a population that can see us right now, the world that they're in is very it's small, right.

00:14:40.970 --> 00:14:47.619
It's their chest and their arms, it's their breastfeeding, their breasts and their heart and that's all the capacity they have.

00:14:47.619 --> 00:14:53.043
So we can want them to honor us, but they really can't, especially in those first three months or so.

00:14:53.043 --> 00:14:57.961
I find this to be a huge conflict point that grandparents want the respect.

00:14:57.961 --> 00:15:04.298
Grown kids, new parents, want respect and basically demand it.

00:15:05.171 --> 00:15:16.024
I think if we look back to how we felt when we first had those babies, it is overwhelming and you're stressed out completely and once again you want their relationship to stay intact, but they still need someone to take their angst out completely.

00:15:16.024 --> 00:15:21.177
And once again, you want their relationship to stay intact, but they still need someone to take their angst out on.

00:15:21.177 --> 00:15:38.193
I think if we can be that pillar of strength and realize they're going to be short with us they're going to be not as tolerant as they should be and just get through it without letting it affect our self-esteem, we're probably going to have a better relationship down the road.

00:15:38.735 --> 00:15:47.831
I think if we practice that as parents, where we let them solve their own problems and we let them deal with that frustration, tolerance, we're probably going to be better at as grandparents.

00:15:47.831 --> 00:16:00.203
So now I have to have them do that in their adult years and say, yeah, that's really hard and that's so hard, and then not think I can fix it for you because you can't as a parent of adult kids.

00:16:00.203 --> 00:16:03.413
You have to let them solve their problems unless they're coming to you to ask.

00:16:03.413 --> 00:16:13.717
I think with postpartum in particular, they don't know how to ask, they don't know what you can do and they don't really want to act vulnerable because they want to prove that they can do it.

00:16:13.717 --> 00:16:18.423
They can do it, yeah, and they can do it, but they're going to do it better with support.

00:16:18.964 --> 00:16:20.385
The research is very clear.

00:16:20.385 --> 00:16:21.572
There's plenty of evidence.

00:16:21.572 --> 00:16:23.155
They do better with support.

00:16:23.155 --> 00:16:35.558
They're more successful, they get better sleep, they like each other more, they like their baby more, they're more confident in their own instincts, they breastfeed more successfully and they have less depression if there's support.

00:16:35.558 --> 00:16:43.523
It's very clear and right now the pressure on new parents is unlike anything we've ever experienced.

00:16:43.909 --> 00:16:45.256
There's so much more anxiety.

00:16:45.429 --> 00:16:46.554
There's so much more fear.

00:16:46.554 --> 00:16:49.038
I mean, I would say new parents are terrified.

00:16:49.038 --> 00:16:56.298
I teach baby care and breastfeeding classes in the hospital and I ask them how they're feeling about babies and they're like we just don't know if we can do it.

00:16:56.298 --> 00:17:02.087
It's such a scary time and it's so dangerous and we're just so, so scared that we what if we don't do it?

00:17:02.087 --> 00:17:03.956
Well, and they have to go to therapy all the time?

00:17:03.956 --> 00:17:05.255
And what if we screw it up?

00:17:05.255 --> 00:17:06.218
What if we're toxic?

00:17:06.218 --> 00:17:14.136
And they're worried about carrying the load of feeding and how they're going to deal with broken sleep, and they're just much more aware of the pressure.

00:17:14.136 --> 00:17:17.862
And I think also none of us parented with the internet right.

00:17:17.942 --> 00:17:20.425
I was going to say do you think it's the internet?

00:17:25.049 --> 00:17:31.220
I absolutely do, because now our psyche has to deal with the ills of the world instead of the ills of the small circle around us and the drama in our families or in our communities.

00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:34.038
We had to go to the library if we wanted to learn something.

00:17:34.038 --> 00:17:37.820
Now it's shouting at you from everything You've got to protect yourself.

00:17:37.820 --> 00:17:39.035
Don't you know about this danger?

00:17:39.035 --> 00:17:40.275
And oh, have you worried about this?

00:17:40.275 --> 00:17:42.557
And there's a health scare, and that there's toxic.

00:17:42.557 --> 00:17:42.838
This.

00:17:42.838 --> 00:17:48.077
Parents have never had this much overload of information and I honestly think it's way too much.

00:17:48.077 --> 00:17:51.953
It's way too much for them to connect with their baby and know what's important.

00:17:51.953 --> 00:17:56.819
Where we had a lot of downtime to do that, we have a lot of time to listen to our own heart and go.

00:17:57.140 --> 00:17:58.741
You know, I think this kid needs this.

00:17:58.741 --> 00:18:08.500
With babies there's not a lot of commonality Like we all love them, but the way we care for them is completely different depending on our culture and our beliefs.

00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:12.873
There's so many discrepancies and controversies in the baby world, even as a professional.

00:18:12.873 --> 00:18:13.933
Like people say, how do you do it?

00:18:13.933 --> 00:18:14.015
It?

00:18:14.015 --> 00:18:15.817
I'm like there's so many ways to do it right.

00:18:15.817 --> 00:18:17.138
There's lots of ways.

00:18:17.179 --> 00:18:41.683
There's not one right way so I wish they could understand that, because some of the things I've heard from my friends that are grandparents is the rules are so strict like nope, my child can't have a pacifier or there can't be any screens for the first three years of their life or four years of their life, and grandpa accidentally shows the four-year-old a play a football play on his cell phone.

00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:50.491
And the parents go bananas.

00:18:50.491 --> 00:18:51.213
It's really hard.

00:18:51.213 --> 00:18:59.980
It is, and parents are getting good information to do these things, but the flexibility they have when it doesn't go well is really difficult and I have to think that's coming from an area of pressure, right.

00:18:59.980 --> 00:19:04.701
Showing screens to babies has pretty bad research, according to it.

00:19:04.701 --> 00:19:25.096
So parents are really strict about it and to feel like there's no flexibility and then grandpa breaks the rule they're being so strict and disciplining themselves so much and then grandpa doesn't do it, like it feels like cheating, like oh, I've been, I don't.

00:19:25.096 --> 00:19:27.183
It's a hard thing to do to not show them screens, and but I can do it and you can't.

00:19:27.183 --> 00:19:29.471
I also think that's you got to give grandpa some grace, right?

00:19:29.471 --> 00:19:30.914
That's what I feel like, I guess.

00:19:31.296 --> 00:19:33.902
I get torn between two working couples.

00:19:33.902 --> 00:19:47.203
Many of my friends are doing at least three times a week childcare, some doing five days a week, so they're exhausted and then the kid gets down on them because their two-year-old had a Tootsie Pop or something.

00:19:47.750 --> 00:19:51.419
I think the most important thing when you're dealing with a conflict is you?

00:19:51.459 --> 00:19:52.982
have to validate their concern.

00:19:52.982 --> 00:19:56.058
You have to say I know I screwed up.

00:19:56.058 --> 00:19:57.736
I didn't mean that tootsie pop.

00:19:57.736 --> 00:19:59.895
It was a moment of breakdown.

00:19:59.895 --> 00:20:01.340
I'm sorry.

00:20:01.340 --> 00:20:06.595
I knew it was equal quiet and I needed quiet in my brain and so I just gave it to them.

00:20:06.595 --> 00:20:09.859
And we have to be vulnerable to say I value what you value.

00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:13.136
I know you don't want your child to have sugar, you don't want those artificial colors.

00:20:13.136 --> 00:20:14.934
I see how important this is to you.

00:20:14.934 --> 00:20:16.699
I want to value that too.

00:20:16.699 --> 00:20:19.734
I'm sorry I broke your trust.

00:20:20.297 --> 00:20:36.759
It was a moment of weakness but I think it's okay to say I'm probably going to have more of those Because I'm doing this thing that you know it's hard physically in your 60s and 70s, especially to do what you can do in your 20s and 30s and 40s.

00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:45.015
It's just easier to get up and run around and get up and down off the floor a million times and have your sleep broken and like you're a more flexible person.

00:20:45.015 --> 00:20:55.124
But as we age, we become less flexible, and so when we're asked to do something that continually demands from us, there's going to be breakdown.

00:20:55.124 --> 00:20:56.406
There just is.

00:20:56.406 --> 00:20:58.211
And of course, parents are going to do it too.

00:20:58.211 --> 00:21:02.461
But I think the first thing you have to say is I trust what you're asking me.

00:21:02.461 --> 00:21:08.892
I know you're doing this because you think this is the best thing and I am not trying to go against what you think.

00:21:08.892 --> 00:21:11.778
I just like I forgot.

00:21:11.778 --> 00:21:20.498
And then I showed the kid the video and then I realized, oh, and you have to be accountable to be letting them down, and that's really hard for us.

00:21:20.498 --> 00:21:22.261
We don't want to be accountable.

00:21:22.261 --> 00:21:26.440
It's super vulnerable and it feels like they're judging us as parents.

00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:28.553
We laid our life down for our kids.

00:21:28.553 --> 00:21:37.991
We sacrificed a ton and we want them to see that, but what they need in that moment, because they're so incensed, is for us to see where they're what they're experiencing.

00:21:37.991 --> 00:21:40.077
I see you being really disappointed.

00:21:40.077 --> 00:21:41.521
I broke the screen rule.

00:21:41.521 --> 00:21:42.751
I get it.

00:21:42.751 --> 00:21:45.760
This is really important to you and I want to follow what's important to you.

00:21:45.760 --> 00:21:47.955
I'll try to do this better.

00:21:47.955 --> 00:21:48.718
Blah, blah, blah.

00:21:48.718 --> 00:21:54.058
Or can we make a plan where there's some compromise that makes it a little bit easier for me?

00:21:54.981 --> 00:21:56.007
for whatever, because we.

00:21:56.166 --> 00:21:59.320
We are finite beings, and the older we get, the more finite we are.

00:21:59.320 --> 00:22:06.682
We have limitations, we have capacities and we love to be everything perfectly all the time, just like new parents would be.

00:22:06.682 --> 00:22:08.556
But we're not going to do that.

00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:10.304
We're going to let them down.

00:22:10.605 --> 00:22:15.900
And then we have to be accountable that we let them down, because if we're not, that escalates quickly.

00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:19.699
Kids need us to be accountable to them, which is also new.

00:22:19.699 --> 00:22:25.476
That's totally new, because, let me tell you, I do not make my parents accountable to me ever.

00:22:25.817 --> 00:22:26.699
I just don't get it.

00:22:26.699 --> 00:22:30.152
I don't get it, so I brought up two things screens and sugar.

00:22:30.152 --> 00:22:38.242
Are there other things you see that we should be aware of in modern parenting Germs?

00:22:38.683 --> 00:22:40.511
Say that again Germs and vaccine.

00:22:40.771 --> 00:22:41.354
Germs and vaccines.

00:22:41.374 --> 00:22:43.799
One of the biggest things right now is not kissing the baby.

00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:56.397
A lot of new parents do not want anybody other than them kissing the baby, and this is really hard for grandparents, because they're incredibly kissable and you may have waited a really long time for that grandbaby and you just want to do it so it.

00:22:56.397 --> 00:23:01.680
So you have to kind of turn off your instincts, and then vaccines can be a really big dividing factor.

00:23:02.951 --> 00:23:04.296
I've had letters on that.

00:23:04.457 --> 00:23:04.657
Yes.

00:23:04.657 --> 00:23:20.765
So grandparents are usually required to get a certain amount of vaccines or have their vaccines updated, and this is really hard because it crosses this line of self-health care, having other people make those decisions for you, or basically having restrictions if you don't have the vaccines.

00:23:20.765 --> 00:23:29.282
So that's a point of contention I can see, and lately I mean I hate to say it and we don't have to get into it but politics plays a role too.

00:23:29.282 --> 00:23:31.714
I'm seeing a lot of parents have different political views than their parents.

00:23:31.714 --> 00:23:48.182
The young parents to their older parents and sometimes they don't want those negative influences in their child's life have different political views than their parents, the young parents to their older parents, and sometimes they don't want those negative influences in their child's life which seems ridiculous to us because we're like can we not all coexist, having different opinions about things?

00:23:48.530 --> 00:24:01.470
This seems very reasonable in a world we've always done, but the more aware the millennials and Gen Z are, the more they want an environment that's conducive to something that's important to them, which is harmony.

00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:08.443
If you have people who are disagreeing all the time at a high level of conflict, they often don't want that around them, and they often don't want that around their kids.

00:24:08.443 --> 00:24:16.134
I'm seeing that as a dividing line too, and our kids cannot expect us to change our political views because of something they believe.

00:24:16.134 --> 00:24:24.119
Our kids cannot expect us to change our political views because of something they believe, and yet we have to somehow buffer that influence if we want to be around their kids and we do.

00:24:24.661 --> 00:24:27.383
A lot of my episodes have talked about look in the mirror.

00:24:27.383 --> 00:24:30.184
We can have different views, but we can't be Archie Bunker.

00:24:30.184 --> 00:24:33.047
Yeah, it's not healthy for anyone.

00:24:37.109 --> 00:24:56.998
And it really doesn't invite more relationship and that's the way I think of it with grandparents is it's really the actions you take and the words you choose either invite more relationship or close down more relationship, and so we have to be motivated to continually open that relationship if we want access to grandbabies because they give us so much joy and we want that.

00:24:56.998 --> 00:24:59.272
Everyone has said that it's unbelievable.

00:24:59.272 --> 00:25:01.037
I thought, of course that'll be great.

00:25:01.037 --> 00:25:06.402
I didn't really understand when grandparents would say oh, we just get to love them, and give them back.

00:25:06.763 --> 00:25:07.467
Ha ha ha ha.

00:25:07.467 --> 00:25:11.106
And I thought what they meant was like we can spoil and we don't have to follow the rules.

00:25:11.106 --> 00:25:12.050
We can do whatever they want.

00:25:12.050 --> 00:25:24.153
But what I realized, having my own grandchild, was it isn't so much that I'm going to break any rules, it's that I get a whole human to delight in that I don't have any responsibility for.

00:25:24.153 --> 00:25:27.300
I don't have to lay awake at night thinking did I do this thing?

00:25:27.300 --> 00:25:27.789
Is he going to?

00:25:27.809 --> 00:25:30.036
be, okay as an adult, am I doing it all right?

00:25:30.036 --> 00:25:32.622
I have kids who are very capable.

00:25:32.622 --> 00:25:34.934
They are parenting him beautifully.

00:25:34.934 --> 00:25:40.337
I get to borrow him, I get to enjoy him and then I get to give him back and I don't have to think about him.

00:25:40.337 --> 00:25:42.854
I can go off to work and I can go to sleep and I don't have to.

00:25:42.854 --> 00:25:45.871
I don't have to pay the price that I had to pay as a parent.

00:25:45.871 --> 00:25:54.742
But I still get a lot of the joy and that part I I don't feel like people articulate it like that Like all the joy without the responsibility.

00:25:55.022 --> 00:25:56.846
That's a dream, right?

00:25:56.846 --> 00:26:06.431
If you had that as a parent, if everybody helped you take care of your kid and everybody helped you with the finances and everybody helped you with the house and the chores, having a baby would be pretty delightful.

00:26:06.431 --> 00:26:08.998
But of course that wasn't how it was for most of us.

00:26:08.998 --> 00:26:14.963
Right, we had our kids, there weren't a lot of people around, we learned to figure out how to do it and we did it.

00:26:14.963 --> 00:26:26.151
And now we get a little criticized for how we did it, because our kids know I've got every you know social and psychological approach in the world because it's out there on the internet and they can say why did you do it this way?

00:26:26.151 --> 00:26:28.217
This wasn't, this isn't what I wanted.

00:26:28.297 --> 00:26:29.681
I wish you would have raised me like this?

00:26:30.690 --> 00:26:33.500
Yeah, well, me too, but it wasn't available Right.

00:26:38.170 --> 00:26:42.103
So, listeners, we're going to take a quick break from talking to Kimberly, because I recently came across this very cool product.

00:26:42.103 --> 00:26:45.451
It's all about travel and engaging kids in travel.

00:26:45.451 --> 00:26:47.076
I came across these guides.

00:26:47.076 --> 00:26:49.561
They're called Curiosity Travel Guides.

00:26:49.561 --> 00:26:55.159
It's spelled C-U-R-I-O city, but it's pronounced curiosity.

00:26:55.159 --> 00:26:56.121
Very creative, huh?

00:26:56.121 --> 00:26:56.781
I love that.

00:26:56.781 --> 00:26:57.903
Now, what are they?

00:26:57.903 --> 00:27:02.059
They're interactive travel guides designed for families traveling with kids.

00:27:02.059 --> 00:27:08.442
Right now, there are two cities available London and Paris, and they're making family trips truly unforgettable.

00:27:08.442 --> 00:27:11.098
And what I really like is they're not techie.

00:27:11.098 --> 00:27:24.959
I was so impressed that I wanted to send the guide to Ellen, my original co-host and psychologist, to get her perspective, both as a grandmother, but also as a psychologist someone that works with young people and I wanted to get her idea of what she thought about them.

00:27:24.959 --> 00:27:31.255
And then, for a special surprise, I reached out to the creator of these, melissa Manassi, and she's going to join us too.

00:27:31.255 --> 00:27:32.439
So stay tuned.

00:27:32.439 --> 00:27:34.375
So, ellen, I sent them to you.

00:27:34.375 --> 00:27:35.518
What are your thoughts on these?

00:27:35.518 --> 00:27:36.099
Do so, stay tuned.

00:27:36.099 --> 00:27:36.922
So, ellen, I sent them to you.

00:27:36.922 --> 00:27:37.564
What?

00:27:37.584 --> 00:27:38.266
are your thoughts on these?

00:27:38.266 --> 00:27:39.288
Do you like them as much as I do?

00:27:39.288 --> 00:27:39.549
I totally do.

00:27:39.549 --> 00:27:41.569
I wanted to book a trip to Paris as soon as I got the Paris one.

00:27:41.569 --> 00:27:43.355
There's so many things I like about it.

00:27:43.355 --> 00:27:48.356
First of all are truly interactive and they're a keepsake, so it's hard to explain what they're like.

00:27:52.551 --> 00:27:56.954
You did a great job of it, but you can see inside, find hidden things.

00:27:56.954 --> 00:28:00.037
And what are the three most interesting things you saw today?

00:28:00.037 --> 00:28:02.157
What are weird things you saw today?

00:28:02.157 --> 00:28:04.558
Even my son, who hated writing, would have hated it.

00:28:04.598 --> 00:28:26.215
And then I started thinking, like, not really, this is the sort of thing we've got to get out of, especially when we're thinking about being grandparents that they react to us very differently than they do to their parents.

00:28:26.778 --> 00:28:28.502
They want to do things with us.

00:28:28.502 --> 00:28:41.902
If we have a grandson who is 10 and hates writing, but you like it and he loves spending time with you, which they do it's a way for you to give them a keepsake that you do together.

00:28:41.902 --> 00:28:53.537
I first picked it up and thought this is great for the right kind of kid and then, in thinking about this as a larger family community, it's just a great way for a family to put their memories on paper.

00:28:53.537 --> 00:29:18.334
Not to mention, it's just a great guide to a city, like, honestly, I would use it myself to sort of figure out, oh yeah, what are the restaurants to go to or the more sites to go to, to think about it as a way of sparking communications and even with a kid who might not be the most verbal 13-year-old, it's a way to open up discussions and organize the kinds of things that you want to talk about and remember.

00:29:18.334 --> 00:29:20.238
So I thought it was fabulous.

00:29:20.618 --> 00:29:23.733
Well, I'm glad you did, and the real surprise is we've got Melissa with us.

00:29:23.733 --> 00:29:32.951
You've never met her, ellen, but I tracked her down and I want to know, melissa, how did you come across this idea, why did you do it and what do you hope?

00:29:33.030 --> 00:29:34.615
others get from it.

00:29:34.615 --> 00:29:39.455
Well, first off, denise, thank you for that review and excellent summary of it.

00:29:39.455 --> 00:29:43.063
And Ellen, I'll take you to Paris anytime you want.

00:29:43.063 --> 00:29:47.297
Great, I'll bring the berets, no problem.

00:29:47.297 --> 00:29:49.421
This book came out.

00:29:49.421 --> 00:29:53.375
You know they always say authors write the book that they wish that they had.

00:29:54.317 --> 00:30:01.579
And, given my husband's job, when our kids were really little, we had the opportunity to travel internationally quite a bit.

00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:15.222
But the source of this book came from as an academic, where I studied all of the theories and concepts of international and intercultural communication combined with being a mom to three little kids.

00:30:15.222 --> 00:30:22.479
Communication combined with being a mom to three little kids when we were roaming the streets of a great city in the world, any great city.

00:30:22.479 --> 00:30:24.522
You know, your motivation can only take you so far.

00:30:24.522 --> 00:30:35.202
I designed these books because I wanted something to inspire questions between the parents and the young adventurers, the kids.

00:30:35.202 --> 00:30:43.440
As I say, these guides don't tell you where to go so much as what to do when you get there.

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.996
The other thing that inspired this book is we would go on these great trips.

00:30:48.996 --> 00:30:57.342
I'd come home, we would put the refrigerator magnet on the refrigerator and done, and then I'm like, okay, so now, what do we do?

00:30:57.342 --> 00:30:59.213
What do we do with all this travel?

00:30:59.835 --> 00:31:03.061
The book was designed in really three main parts.

00:31:03.061 --> 00:31:15.998
One, how do you prepare to go on a trip, but how do you get your young person excited about going to one of these big cities?

00:31:15.998 --> 00:31:23.645
And by doing that you really need to put them in the driver's seat to both inspire and ignite curiosity.

00:31:23.645 --> 00:31:29.323
Then, with the book, it's the questions to ask when you get to the site.

00:31:29.323 --> 00:31:37.441
So, using the Paris book as an example, most of the kids have seen a video, a TikTok, whatever of the Eiffel Tower.

00:31:37.441 --> 00:31:43.299
One of my main purposes of this book was these kids have seen all these things.

00:31:43.299 --> 00:31:54.038
Rather than going up, taking a picture with your iPhone, quickly posting it on Instagram and then waiting impatiently, how many likes can all my friends get back at home?

00:31:54.038 --> 00:31:56.743
It's, don't take a picture of the Eiffel Tower.

00:31:56.743 --> 00:32:01.020
Instead, turn around and take a look at the tourists.

00:32:01.910 --> 00:32:15.182
The middle section meat and potatoes of the book is learning how to approach travel in a way that leads with questions rather than leads with the posting on Instagram.

00:32:15.182 --> 00:32:21.858
The last 25% of the book is all about okay, now what we're home.

00:32:21.858 --> 00:32:23.355
What do we do with this travel?

00:32:23.355 --> 00:32:34.661
I offer questions, ideas, activities of ways of bringing the travel back into your hometown, because travel changes us and it's supposed to.

00:32:35.589 --> 00:32:47.242
Lastly, the kind of the piece de resistance, shall we say, and the thing that I love about it, so going very old school with the mementos that they would add into the book.

00:32:47.242 --> 00:32:56.095
So not only does the book help you prepare for travel, it gives you ideas and support when you, as the parent, are exhausted.

00:32:56.095 --> 00:33:08.856
It gives you ideas on bringing the travel back, and then it also creates a great keepsake that the kids will refer to long after the jet lag has subsided.

00:33:08.856 --> 00:33:10.496
I love that.

00:33:10.496 --> 00:33:12.195
So how can people get this?

00:33:12.195 --> 00:33:23.179
You can order it most easily off of my website, which is Curiosity Travel Guides and, as you said, it's curiocitytravelguidescom.

00:33:23.179 --> 00:33:25.242
You can get it off of Amazon.

00:33:25.242 --> 00:33:32.461
We're in about 15 different bookstores and gift shops in the Denver area.

00:33:32.461 --> 00:33:39.968
You can get it at Beacon Hill Bookstore in Boston, but the easiest way is just to click and get it off of the website.

00:33:40.971 --> 00:33:42.094
Well, thank you Melissa.

00:33:42.094 --> 00:33:42.796
Thank you, ellen.

00:33:42.796 --> 00:33:44.200
It was great to get your perspective.

00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:47.440
Ellen, let's get back to today's episode with Grandmother Dula.

00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.115
How old is your grandson?

00:33:50.115 --> 00:33:51.098
He's a year and a half.

00:33:51.098 --> 00:33:52.112
Oh, how fun.

00:33:52.112 --> 00:33:54.178
You think they're doing a great job at parenting.

00:33:54.178 --> 00:34:08.902
What does the grandparent do that feels like the mom wants to have a home birth, but maybe it really goes against this mother, thinking this baby's going to die, or they just want to have a home birth, and maybe the mother had a really complicated birth and thinks you're crazy.

00:34:08.902 --> 00:34:15.005
How do you continually bite your tongue if you don't think they're doing the parenting the right way?

00:34:15.065 --> 00:34:15.447
or not.

00:34:15.447 --> 00:34:20.117
I don't have an easy answer, but I would say I would say two things.

00:34:20.117 --> 00:34:24.210
First, I would say deal with how you feel about it.

00:34:24.210 --> 00:34:27.601
Vent to someone not your kid, but vent to someone.

00:34:27.601 --> 00:34:33.360
Get a therapist, get a friend, talk to someone who you can say I think this is crazy and blah, blah, blah and blah.

00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:39.980
Let it all out there and then process really, what is it that's holding you back, like what is it?

00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:40.820
Is it the fear?

00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:41.943
Is it worry?

00:34:41.943 --> 00:34:43.414
Is it your own trauma?

00:34:43.414 --> 00:34:48.405
Because a lot of us have trauma that's unresolved, because we never even thought we could deal with our trauma.

00:34:48.405 --> 00:34:50.813
We thought we just had to get tougher and do it anyway right.

00:34:50.893 --> 00:35:10.059
but now that we have avenues to deal with trauma, get a therapist, do some meditation, do some prayer, figure out how we really feel about this, because those the way we feel is going to influence how much impact we have in their life, how much relationship we get, and the more negative we feel, the more there's going to influence how much impact we have in their life, how much relationship we get, and the more negative we feel, the more there's going to be higher walls and bigger boundaries.

00:35:10.059 --> 00:35:16.641
So that'd be the first thing I would say is I think that's an absolutely legitimate concern, but they should deal with that away from the kids.

00:35:16.641 --> 00:35:21.818
And second, I would say, once you've got kind of a handle, at least you can recognize how you're feeling.

00:35:21.818 --> 00:35:27.090
Be curious about what your kids want when.

00:35:27.090 --> 00:35:28.675
Recognize how you're feeling, be curious about what your kids want.

00:35:28.695 --> 00:35:32.164
When you're curious, you show that you trust them and you can start to say, oh, I can see why you'd want that.

00:35:32.164 --> 00:35:33.248
Oh, I can.

00:35:33.248 --> 00:35:44.583
This seems you want a home birth because it's a really intimate experience and you don't want to be in the hospital with 16 to 20 strangers looking at all your body and you don't feel safe there.

00:35:44.583 --> 00:35:49.277
Or maybe you lost someone and the hospital represents death to you, but home represents life.

00:35:49.277 --> 00:35:51.342
I see that that makes sense.

00:35:51.342 --> 00:35:55.601
You don't have to agree with it, but you can say I can see why you'd want that.

00:35:55.601 --> 00:35:58.356
And now you're putting your trust in your kids.

00:35:58.356 --> 00:36:03.297
And the funniest thing I've found as a doula because I haven't had tons.

00:36:03.358 --> 00:36:04.945
My kids are only 20 and 25.

00:36:04.945 --> 00:36:07.873
So I haven't had tons and tons of adult children experience.

00:36:07.873 --> 00:36:11.563
But as a doula, what I've seen is I agree with my clients quickly.

00:36:11.563 --> 00:36:12.753
Whatever they say.

00:36:12.753 --> 00:36:15.603
I say, yeah, okay, let's do that.

00:36:15.603 --> 00:36:19.673
That sounds like a great plan and sometimes in my heart I'm like this is not a good plan.

00:36:19.733 --> 00:36:21.777
It's not going to work and you think it's going to work.

00:36:21.797 --> 00:36:29.231
It's not going to work and you know what, sometimes I'm wrong and exactly what they want to do works perfectly, even though I know the evidence against it.

00:36:29.231 --> 00:36:32.740
I've had thousands of babies that I've worked with that have not done that.

00:36:32.740 --> 00:36:38.161
I know it wouldn't work, but sometimes it does and it really helps me to be more open and go.

00:36:38.161 --> 00:36:40.213
You know, there's just a lot of ways to do this.

00:36:40.213 --> 00:36:49.577
But even when it doesn't, even when they basically make a decision that I'm like okay, we'll try that inside my head, but outwardly I'm like, okay, let's do it.

00:36:49.909 --> 00:36:52.318
When I come the next visit I'll say, yeah, we tried that.

00:36:52.318 --> 00:36:57.480
It didn't work at all, but they're willing to be vulnerable because I was willing to believe in them.

00:36:57.710 --> 00:36:59.597
I was like sure, let's give this a try.

00:36:59.597 --> 00:37:02.679
If they fail at it, I say, okay, well, what do we want to do now?

00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:04.641
What makes sense to you now?

00:37:04.641 --> 00:37:06.822
And they said, well, we're going to do it this way, Great.

00:37:06.822 --> 00:37:10.625
And then I get on board with that and maybe that's a good avenue, or maybe it's not.

00:37:10.625 --> 00:37:13.847
But the quicker you agree, the more included you are.

00:37:14.007 --> 00:37:18.561
And the more they're willing to say gosh, we really we didn't make a good call on that one.

00:37:18.561 --> 00:37:25.911
Yeah, we all do that.

00:37:25.911 --> 00:37:26.434
That's, that's parenting.

00:37:26.434 --> 00:37:32.217
It's really hard and you're going to make some wrong calls, but you know what Research shows you only have to get it right 50% of the time with babies to build this like lasting, beautiful bond with your child.

00:37:32.217 --> 00:37:35.936
So it's okay, you got 50% to screw up.

00:37:35.936 --> 00:37:40.882
I just find that if you're really stuck, things are going to break.

00:37:40.882 --> 00:37:57.492
But if you stay flexible and let your grown kids who've probably really thought this out they've done a lot of research they have a lot behind this decision, even if it goes against everything you've always believed if it's important to them, you kind of got to get on board and trust them.

00:37:57.492 --> 00:38:00.981
And the more you trust them, the more involved they're going to have you.

00:38:01.530 --> 00:38:03.175
Let's talk about these early weeks.

00:38:03.175 --> 00:38:12.019
You come to visit maybe the second or third week and they're really struggling with, say, breastfeeding or sleep.

00:38:12.019 --> 00:38:12.922
I'm a little worried about this personally.

00:38:12.922 --> 00:38:13.865
They're struggling with breastfeeding.

00:38:13.865 --> 00:38:16.833
How to be supportive and not want to say, well, take the baby and do this.

00:38:16.833 --> 00:38:23.721
Are there approaches that you use that we should learn to help them sort of navigate this?

00:38:24.364 --> 00:38:27.275
The biggest difference in breastfeeding I think has happened.

00:38:27.275 --> 00:38:35.679
Uh, happened in 1985 because we had professional lactation consultants that were board certified, trained and certified in 1985.

00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:37.242
And now every hospital has them.

00:38:37.242 --> 00:38:43.581
The breastfeeding rates in 85 were, I don't know, 25 or 30% and they're 83% now.

00:38:43.581 --> 00:38:49.802
So the vast majority of everyone is breastfeeding, which means we're going to have more problems, more complications.

00:38:49.802 --> 00:38:56.791
There's the people who were breastfeeding in the seventies, eighties, nineties were people who were doing it because it was manageable.

00:38:56.791 --> 00:38:58.355
It was easy enough to do.

00:38:58.355 --> 00:39:00.380
Maybe not easy, but manageable.

00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:02.023
Right, it resolved itself.

00:39:02.023 --> 00:39:05.559
The people who are breastfeeding now is almost everyone.

00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:07.954
So there's all kinds of families that have.

00:39:07.954 --> 00:39:08.255
They been.

00:39:08.255 --> 00:39:13.036
In the seventies, eighties, they would just stop breastfeeding in formula fit because that was so acceptable.

00:39:13.036 --> 00:39:14.990
Then the vast majority of people formula fit.

00:39:14.990 --> 00:39:16.896
Now the vast majority of people breastfeed.

00:39:16.896 --> 00:39:26.811
If you have a problem and you can't easily overcome it, you have tons of avenues to fix it, where I think the grandparents come in and say well, I did this, try this.

00:39:26.811 --> 00:39:34.438
What they're suggesting was an easy enough solution that made it work for them, but the solution for their kids might be way more complicated.

00:39:34.438 --> 00:39:38.235
And then I would just say bring in a professional and get on board with that

00:39:38.275 --> 00:39:41.231
person and what the parents want to do with a professional Cause.

00:39:41.231 --> 00:39:43.775
The parents don't always love what the professionals say.

00:39:43.775 --> 00:39:47.902
I'm a lactation consultant too and sometimes they're like, eh, we don't really like this plan.

00:39:47.902 --> 00:39:49.853
I'm like, all right, let's, what can you do?

00:39:49.853 --> 00:39:51.076
Let's change the plan.

00:39:51.076 --> 00:40:06.362
But I would say with grandparents, the best thing to do would be to listen to the experts and read their kids really well, like if the experts say, here's this plan, you got to pump 12 times a day and you got to store your milk and here's what you got to do and the grandparents are like there's no way they're going to do that.

00:40:06.922 --> 00:40:09.112
And then the kids come and go this is overwhelming.

00:40:09.112 --> 00:40:11.201
Say, okay, we got this plan.

00:40:11.201 --> 00:40:11.702
What?

00:40:11.702 --> 00:40:12.827
What do you like about it?

00:40:12.827 --> 00:40:13.811
What do you not like about it?

00:40:13.811 --> 00:40:17.300
Because grandparents who breastfed they understand the concept right.

00:40:17.300 --> 00:40:19.432
They know the more you breastfeed, the more milk you make.

00:40:19.432 --> 00:40:20.976
Like they got the basics down.

00:40:20.976 --> 00:40:26.324
It's not like you have to teach them, but the nuance of like pump flanges are all.

00:40:26.324 --> 00:40:29.396
There's like 18 pump flange sizes now.

00:40:29.617 --> 00:40:31.380
There's 30 different pump companies.

00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:33.315
They all make five to 10 different pumps.

00:40:33.315 --> 00:40:35.344
So the amount of overload to get.

00:40:35.344 --> 00:40:37.893
Oh, and there's three different shapes of pump flanges too.

00:40:37.893 --> 00:40:42.851
So how could you possibly know that all of these things have happened in the last 30 years?

00:40:42.851 --> 00:40:49.244
And even the pump flange sizes only got research last December, last December 2024.

00:40:49.630 --> 00:41:00.460
Things are changing so quickly it's impossible for grandparents to be up to date enough to say oh, I read this thing about tongue tie and I hear there's exercises you can do to reduce tension.

00:41:00.460 --> 00:41:03.557
Yeah, lactation consultants know that.

00:41:03.557 --> 00:41:10.581
But an average grandparent who was an accountant or a marketing manager doesn't know anything about that and shouldn't be expected to.

00:41:10.581 --> 00:41:20.021
So when they say just do this or just do this, it sounds like a simplification of a problem that like they don't believe their child is working hard enough.

00:41:20.610 --> 00:41:22.277
Parents do not like that judgment.

00:41:22.277 --> 00:41:27.677
They feel that's a pushy approach, even though all the grandparent is trying to do is say well, I got through it.

00:41:27.677 --> 00:41:29.099
I believe you can too.

00:41:29.099 --> 00:41:30.903
So that's what I would say.

00:41:30.903 --> 00:41:38.954
Rather than trying to fix it, I would say I know you to be a resilient, determined, creative problem solver.

00:41:38.954 --> 00:41:42.711
I know you're going to get through this and I'm going to be here to help you whatever you need.

00:41:42.711 --> 00:41:43.994
I believe in you.

00:41:43.994 --> 00:41:50.884
Let's go see that lactation consultant and see what kind of plan we can get rather than well I know, with me.

00:41:50.884 --> 00:41:51.784
I just did.

00:41:53.030 --> 00:41:58.342
That feels so pushy, even though I know it is not meant that way, but that's how it's received.

00:41:58.342 --> 00:42:08.340
I found that to be such a roadblock for grandparents because they're like I know I could get her to do it if she just would, but as a lactation consultant, I can tell you if that approach would work.

00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:10.724
She probably already tried it and it didn't work.

00:42:10.724 --> 00:42:15.978
And now she's like I need a higher level of problem solving and it's available so she can get it.

00:42:15.978 --> 00:42:21.081
Plus, by the time someone sees a lactation consultant, they've probably read 25 articles online.

00:42:21.081 --> 00:42:25.617
They've watched hundreds of reels on TikTok or Instagram.

00:42:25.617 --> 00:42:27.842
We have tons of overload.

00:42:27.842 --> 00:42:33.394
Maybe it's this, maybe it's this, maybe it's this.

00:42:33.394 --> 00:42:35.400
And how can their brain when you're postpartum, sort through all that.

00:42:35.420 --> 00:42:35.922
It's so overwhelming.

00:42:35.922 --> 00:42:39.759
Oh gosh, I that's you know, I never thought of all that information coming at them.

00:42:39.759 --> 00:42:41.206
That sounds like hell to me.

00:42:41.206 --> 00:42:43.431
To be honest with you, it's not fun, I will say.

00:42:43.452 --> 00:42:47.539
a lot of parents are not choosing to have kids because of all this pressure.

00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:49.442
So our birth rate's actually going down.

00:42:49.442 --> 00:43:02.293
So part of being a grandparent, I think, is you need to celebrate the fact that your legacy is going on, because there's lots of generations that their legacy is not going on and where you might be unhappy about the way it's being done.

00:43:02.293 --> 00:43:10.213
You kind of got to be grateful that it's being done because you could be in that situation where you have no grandkids and that's just the rest of your life and you know what?

00:43:10.213 --> 00:43:13.327
That's a huge chunk of joy that you're missing out on.

00:43:13.327 --> 00:43:21.856
That you're going to have to carve out some other way, because if you don't get grandkids, I mean that's the biggest sorts of joy people say in retirement, bigger than anything.

00:43:21.856 --> 00:43:29.298
I just mean if you look at grandparents and they chart to tell you what's most joyful, they will tell you the grandkids are right up there.

00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:35.141
It'd be really hard, as a mother who breastfed, to have your daughter say I'm not breastfeeding.

00:43:35.141 --> 00:43:38.775
Yeah, it would be, and how do you deal with that?

00:43:40.610 --> 00:43:44.742
You vent to the people who can hear you, because that's not your daughter.

00:43:45.891 --> 00:43:50.621
You vent to people who can say, ouch, that looks like a slap in your face.

00:43:50.621 --> 00:43:54.458
After all the work you did to breastfeed, why is your daughter doing this?

00:43:54.458 --> 00:44:11.831
It sounds hurtful and let people grieve over what they're missing, because if you were expecting to pass that on and you wanted your grandchild breastfed and they choose not to or can't't, whatever, there's going to be grief, and grief is worthy of space and processing.

00:44:11.831 --> 00:44:15.257
But trying to change that not going to happen.

00:44:15.257 --> 00:44:28.309
Nothing you do will change the outcome of what the decision that the parents will make and if you try to change it will make.

00:44:28.309 --> 00:44:29.974
And if you try to change it, estrangement is a possibility.

00:44:29.994 --> 00:44:35.873
So while I think that's an absolutely valid concern for a grandparent, there's no avenue that's safe to say it to your grown kids.

00:44:35.873 --> 00:44:47.916
Maybe later, at some point, when that child is healthy and grown, they can say, oh, I wanted that baby breastfed so badly, but look how amazing you did with formula, look at what a great kid they turned out.

00:44:47.916 --> 00:44:49.135
I trust you so much.

00:44:49.135 --> 00:45:00.278
And you might not be able to say it in the moment, but I would challenge grandparents to get to the point where they can say that, because it's really going to mean a lot to those parents because everyone is telling them to breastfeed.

00:45:00.278 --> 00:45:07.313
Everyone, every research study, every doctor, every obstetrician, every pediatrician is going to tell them to breastfeed.

00:45:07.313 --> 00:45:16.775
And if they choose not to, they've chosen it for a reason, and it might not seem like a good reason, but it is to them and I can understand the sadness that might come.

00:45:17.157 --> 00:45:20.471
When they wanted to and can't, then that's an emotional.

00:45:20.471 --> 00:45:21.474
You have to be supportive.

00:45:21.474 --> 00:45:24.661
If they just make a hard, fast choice, too much trouble for me.

00:45:29.489 --> 00:45:29.851
I'm not doing it.

00:45:29.851 --> 00:45:31.137
I'd have to really work on biting my tongue, I would say.

00:45:31.137 --> 00:45:38.221
As a lactation consultant, I see people where they beat their head against the wall to try to breastfeed and try and try and try and try and end up with depression and anxiety and taking meds.

00:45:38.221 --> 00:45:47.284
Really, the outcome would have been much better had they chosen formula from the beginning, because they could have started building their own parenting instincts and just believing in themselves.

00:45:47.284 --> 00:45:49.954
People say oh, you're not supposed to be so supportive of formula.

00:45:49.974 --> 00:45:51.059
You know, what I am.

00:45:51.059 --> 00:45:53.771
Supportive of parents first, that's exactly right.

00:45:53.771 --> 00:45:58.782
Right, lactation is a skill I have, but my goal is for parents to trust themselves.

00:45:58.782 --> 00:46:01.056
You need that when you're raising kids.

00:46:01.056 --> 00:46:10.101
You've got to be able to trust your own instincts and right now our world is ripping instincts away by burdening parents with tons of anxiety and pressure.

00:46:10.101 --> 00:46:15.197
And I think we have to get to the core of saying this baby came to me Like.

00:46:15.197 --> 00:46:21.422
I get to make the choices about it and people trust me and I'm going to do a good job and I'm the right parent for this baby.

00:46:21.422 --> 00:46:30.300
And that's more important to me than if they formula, feed or schedule their babies or yeah, a lot of people are scheduling C-sections and things like that.

00:46:30.340 --> 00:46:31.001
Yeah, yeah.

00:46:31.670 --> 00:46:34.498
Yep, yep, and even scheduling their like behavior.

00:46:34.498 --> 00:46:42.893
They'll have a whole schedule that they do with their baby and I think, okay, that's not very organic in terms of seeing what the baby is, but you know what, it works really well for some babies.

00:46:42.893 --> 00:46:49.282
Okay, you know, there's a, there's a way to be able to see it without um criticizing.

00:46:49.282 --> 00:46:54.295
No, I get that, but I I have had the joy of getting to see that with thousands and thousands of parents.

00:46:54.295 --> 00:46:58.554
Even when they do it the way I would not have chosen to do it, I see the outcome.

00:46:58.554 --> 00:47:07.012
So I have this like breaking off of my hard, hard and fast things because of all these experiences and grandparents often haven't had that.

00:47:07.012 --> 00:47:13.954
You know that's a benefit that I've seen families be a million different ways and have it be beautiful and loving, interesting.

00:47:14.456 --> 00:47:19.735
So one of the hardest things is when you do live far away, and I hear a lot of differing things.

00:47:19.735 --> 00:47:24.494
A lot of people say rent an Airbnb, have your own space, don't be on top of them.

00:47:24.494 --> 00:47:26.099
Not everyone can afford this.

00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:36.032
You're flying to the destination, you want to stay a couple of weeks, or maybe they even want you to help with childcare a month or whatever it is, so that the child doesn't have to go to childcare so early.

00:47:36.032 --> 00:47:40.682
How do you balance not being in their way if you have to stay with them?

00:47:41.130 --> 00:47:46.001
The best approach I've seen is I call it on hours and off hours.

00:47:46.001 --> 00:47:49.550
So basically you think about it like a job, right?

00:47:49.550 --> 00:47:58.135
You have to show up to work, being rested, being nourished, hydrated, take care of your own needs You're on and then, when you're off, you get your downtime.

00:47:58.135 --> 00:48:03.842
You get to exercise, you get to eat what you want or cook what you want, or read or have downtime.

00:48:03.842 --> 00:48:06.632
When you're on, you can't think about all your needs.

00:48:06.632 --> 00:48:10.431
You have to be on, but when you're off, you really do need to take care of everything.

00:48:10.431 --> 00:48:20.003
And I think sometimes the on hours for grandparents are about three to four hours at a time, and not eight hours or 12 hours or 14 hours.

00:48:20.766 --> 00:48:23.293
And we have to look at our body capabilities.

00:48:23.293 --> 00:48:33.623
If what we need is an hour in the morning to get up and read the news and to have coffee and to go to the bathroom and take a shower and whatever like, we need an hour of downtime.

00:48:33.623 --> 00:48:36.358
Well, infants do not allow you such luxuries.

00:48:36.358 --> 00:48:43.001
We've all done that and part of what we like about our life is we've curated it the way that works for us.

00:48:43.001 --> 00:48:44.737
We eat the way that works the best.

00:48:44.737 --> 00:48:46.135
We exercise the way that works for us.

00:48:46.135 --> 00:48:47.782
We eat the way that works the best, we exercise the way that works the best.

00:48:47.804 --> 00:48:52.135
So when you shut all that off and just focus on an infant, you start falling apart, right?

00:48:52.135 --> 00:48:58.420
You start not getting your own needs met, you don't have any downtime, you're not sleeping enough, you're not eating in the right way, you're not exercising.

00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:00.755
All of a sudden, you're just not so happy.

00:49:00.755 --> 00:49:02.259
Your body's not working that well.

00:49:02.259 --> 00:49:09.806
So I really say think of it like a job, do everything you need to do on your off hours and carve out the things that you need.

00:49:09.806 --> 00:49:16.242
So if you're in another city but you do yoga twice a week, go find the yoga classes and do them twice a week.

00:49:16.242 --> 00:49:23.697
If you're going to be there for a couple of weeks because you can live without yoga for a week, but by week three you're ticked off and you have nowhere for that angst to go.

00:49:24.378 --> 00:49:35.367
Right, it's really about, I think, carving out the time and being really selfless when you're on, but being really selfish when you're off, because otherwise we're not strong to be there for our kids.

00:49:35.387 --> 00:49:48.360
If you have to stay with them, would you say that for the hours you're on, you're around and about because you're working with the baby, but when you're off you're either out or in your room and you give them the space that they need?

00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:50.751
New parents need a lot of space to.

00:49:51.273 --> 00:50:06.282
It's just a slow pace and I think for grandmas especially, we're like we're doing stuff, like we're cleaning and organizing and shopping and cooking and prepping, and that's hard work for us, but the the space of a baby is slow.

00:50:06.282 --> 00:50:23.940
It's recognize the moments and be in the moment, and so the work we do around parents can be really busy, but when we're in that moment with the baby, we need to be slow, we need to be able to recognize, and I don't think we can do that if we're busy thinking about all the stuff we have to do.

00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:38.262
I think there's some on stuff that we do with practicalities and then there's some on time where we just look at our kid and say you're amazing, you're so much better of a parent than I ever could have been or even could have dreamt that you are.

00:50:38.262 --> 00:50:50.179
We have to take the time to slow down enough to recognize what they're doing and what they're doing might just be their baby looked at them and we're like I remember you looking at me.

00:50:50.219 --> 00:50:54.242
Like that, that's so beautiful, like you have to be able to take that space and do it.

00:50:54.242 --> 00:50:57.085
And if you're busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, you can't right.

00:50:57.085 --> 00:51:00.891
They might say, oh, mom was so helpful, she did all these things.

00:51:00.891 --> 00:51:14.853
But what they may really want is just for you to be in that moment to say you're incredible, you're an incredible mother, and I see what you do for your child, I see the hours of breastfeeding that you're working through and I know you're going to be successful because I trust you.

00:51:14.853 --> 00:51:15.936
There's that.

00:51:15.936 --> 00:51:21.231
But if you don't take care of yourself during your on off time, you can't be in that moment.

00:51:21.231 --> 00:51:25.298
Like you just don't have the mental and emotional energy to recognize that.

00:51:25.298 --> 00:51:26.760
And your kids need that.

00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:31.235
I think they need that more than any of the practical stuff, cause you can hire out a lot of practical stuff.

00:51:31.275 --> 00:51:32.597
You can have meals delivered.

00:51:32.597 --> 00:51:36.614
You can have um someone come and clean the house, right.

00:51:36.614 --> 00:51:39.751
We can have someone come and take the dogs for a walk and get groceries.

00:51:39.751 --> 00:51:41.195
Those are all that stuff can be done.

00:51:41.195 --> 00:51:46.123
But no one else is the voice of the emotional support that the grandparents.

00:51:46.123 --> 00:51:48.534
That's beautiful and it means the most.

00:51:48.534 --> 00:51:52.242
It means way more than even for me as a professional.

00:51:52.242 --> 00:51:56.780
I say those things to moms and they just tear up and it matters to them.

00:51:56.780 --> 00:52:01.617
But when their own parents says it, they're just like they.

00:52:01.617 --> 00:52:04.684
They recognize, they see me, they love me, they trust me.

00:52:04.684 --> 00:52:08.030
That's as good as you can expect as a parent right.

00:52:08.030 --> 00:52:12.081
To have someone else really believe in you, that's an incredible feeling.

00:52:12.081 --> 00:52:23.936
And to have your own parents, who've seen you through some of your awkward stages right, who have known you aren't always successful, to believe that you'll be successful and that you are successful, I think that's one of the deepest needs of our heart.

00:52:24.016 --> 00:52:25.041
That's really beautiful.

00:52:25.041 --> 00:52:29.510
I would love to end with that because it's so beautiful, but I have to ask you for two takeaways.

00:52:29.510 --> 00:52:36.315
But I really love that and for me, especially, who's always on and moving fast, that's gonna be my huge takeaway.

00:52:36.315 --> 00:52:37.199
So thank you.

00:52:38.489 --> 00:52:40.157
Yeah, you're not the only one.

00:52:40.157 --> 00:52:48.295
When I speak to grandparents, many of them think about all the things they can do, but recognizing who their kids are is far more important.

00:52:48.315 --> 00:52:49.920
And that's actually one of my takeaways.

00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:51.150
Okay, good, go for it.

00:52:51.150 --> 00:53:11.862
My first takeaway is to believe in your kids, is to know that you've done all the work that you could do to make them good parents and trust their instincts with their kids and let them borrow your belief during a time that's high pressure, low sleep, not a lot of nurturing, and yet they're giving a lot of nurturing away.

00:53:11.862 --> 00:53:26.016
Think of them in a deficit that you have to pour into just for that early postpartum phase, not forever, but just early on, because it's really hard and they don't trust themselves and nothing we have built in our culture allows them to trust their instincts.

00:53:26.016 --> 00:53:34.202
If they can borrow your confidence just for a little while until they feel it themselves, they're going to feel it faster and earlier and have more trust in themselves.

00:53:34.202 --> 00:53:56.987
So believe and and don't just say you're a great mom or you're a great dad, but say I see the way you care for your kid, I see you getting up at 3am and 4am and 5am, what an investment you are making in nurturing this baby and it's really going to pay off and I I love what you're doing with your kids, or I love this about you be specific.

00:53:56.987 --> 00:54:16.043
And then number two is make sure that you're getting your own needs met too, as a grandparent, because I think we haven't had a culture where we can go to therapy, where we can have some reflection on how we're feeling and some recognition of our own grief and our own pain, sort of postpartum abandonment.

00:54:16.184 --> 00:54:17.849
You know, we didn't have a lot of postpartum care.

00:54:17.849 --> 00:54:38.735
It hasn't been present in several generations, and so to pour into a next generation feels like, and so to pour into a next generation feels like, well, nobody did this for me and I was okay, except there's some hurt there that nobody did it for you and had you been able to change it, you would have, because you knew you needed help, like postpartum needs help, new babies need help.

00:54:38.735 --> 00:54:42.501
This is a cultural shift that we're doing it independently.

00:54:42.501 --> 00:55:13.659
So I think if you can go get your own needs met and have someone say that grief is worthy of being processed, let's process how that feels, so that you can get to a place where you're like okay, now I can, I can handle what they're throwing at me, because, even though I don't necessarily believe in it or I didn't practice it that way, it matters to them and they matter to me, but you can't get to that emotional space until you've all the stuff that's inside, and that isn't something we're super practiced at.

00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:15.757
So that's my second takeaway.

00:55:16.271 --> 00:55:19.054
So I would love you to tell people how they can get in touch with you.

00:55:19.054 --> 00:55:21.601
Why don't you do that?

00:55:21.601 --> 00:55:23.036
Sell yourself a little bit at the end.

00:55:23.056 --> 00:55:23.376
Fair enough.

00:55:23.376 --> 00:55:32.938
So I have several hats that I wear, but the primary one right now is grandparentdoulacom, so they can go to the site.

00:55:32.938 --> 00:55:35.210
They can read all about the class that I have offered.

00:55:35.210 --> 00:55:58.083
I have a lot more at abcdoulacom because I'm still running my doula agency and we have a lot of classes for parents and grandparents there too, but the main goal is there at grandparentdoulacom and then on Instagram I'm at thegrandparentdoula and we have a lot of fun there because I get lots of feedback from grandparents.

00:55:59.811 --> 00:56:08.900
Oh, I bet that's a great one to follow and I will put that both your website and the Instagram in my episode notes and also in my social media when the episode drops.

00:56:08.900 --> 00:56:11.043
So, kimberly, thank you so much.

00:56:11.043 --> 00:56:12.411
I'm on my way.

00:56:12.411 --> 00:56:14.038
I'm going to be a better grandparent.

00:56:14.038 --> 00:56:18.311
Mostly I have to get rid of everything and talk to other people, but thank you so much.

00:56:18.311 --> 00:56:19.333
I really appreciate it.

00:56:19.333 --> 00:56:20.916
Okay, thanks.

00:56:20.916 --> 00:56:25.844
Well, I hope all of you love that as much as I did.

00:56:26.411 --> 00:56:32.378
Most of you who've been listening know I'm a high energy person, so I'm going to have to really tone myself down.

00:56:32.378 --> 00:56:35.760
It's going to be a big journey for me, but this really helped.

00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:56.501
So, as you know again, we're not dropping episodes as regularly as we have before, but there's lots of fun things coming up, and I have to thank Connie Gorn Fisher again, our audio production engineer, and write to us biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom, share your comments and ideas and certainly if you have people you think would be really great for us to interview.

00:56:56.501 --> 00:56:58.637
We're still looking for support.

00:56:58.637 --> 00:57:02.902
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00:57:02.902 --> 00:57:06.518
Buy us a virtual cup of coffee, biteyourtonguepodcastcom.

00:57:06.518 --> 00:57:07.860
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00:57:07.860 --> 00:57:09.003
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00:57:09.003 --> 00:57:15.210
Thank you all once again for listening and remember, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.

00:57:15.210 --> 00:57:16.670
Thank you.